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[quote]
Probably the best article I've seen on the proposed (more like begged) bail-out of the US auto industry. The first half pretty much describes the reality of the situation - blatant and long-term mismanagement.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10545047

R
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yeah fuck 'em

they go begging in lear jets?

on yer bikes
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The auto industry bail out if approved is not for the fat cats at the top and TBH the reasons for their current situation are almost irrelevant at this point.

Many bad decisions have been made but its really about the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost if they go under and the flow on effects from that fall out on the country both economic and psychological.

I'm not sure the U.S can afford to let such a thing happen right now on top of everything else that has gone wrong.

In saying that I do hold a a fair amount of contempt for the American auto industry, anyone seen "Who Killed the Electric Car?".

You reap what you sow.
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Emphasis on the psychological part by the way because the collapse of such a long standing and highly respected industrial force right now could spread panic like wild fire and that will lead to further economic woes among other things.
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Doesnt the US govt have a whole lot of money invested in the auto industry for retirement funds?
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bob said:
Doesnt the US govt have a whole lot of money invested in the auto industry for retirement funds?


Not sure about that but one of the excuses given for their current state of affairs concerns the contractual agreements they have to pay the health care and pensions of thousands of ex employees. I think they have ended up becoming a huge ball and chain.

But then who's fault is that? They wrote the darn contracts in the first place.
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Rips said:
Emphasis on the psychological part by the way because the collapse of such a long standing and highly respected industrial force right now could spread panic like wild fire and that will lead to further economic woes among other things.


a line nevertheless has to be drawn in the sand

Th US cannot continue to prop up every ailing industry that finds itself in trouble because of its own unsustainable business practises
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sooner or later they will just have to let it go like the Brits did with their erstwhile much vaunted car industry

as to the loss of millions of jobs: the Brits adapted well enough after a period and have had a flourishing specialist auto services industry

the yanks will also just have to accept reality and let others build factories and run things their way better and more profitably taking up the employment slack
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GM's market cap in June was $7b and they're the biggest (I believe). So the three of them must be asking for a bailout in excess of their total market capitalisation. If the Govt gives them $25b then they should own them, or at least a huge percentage.
Do what Cullen did with AirNZ.
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Via http://lancewiggs.com/2008/11/18/please-dont-bail-out-gm/

quote:
“When it comes to bailing out the auto industry, count me in the “let them starve” camp. The auto industry has been outsourcing American jobs for 25 years now with little regard for the devastated communities they’ve left in their wake (seriously, re-watch Roger & Me sometime). The big three have also used their lobbying might to oppose every environmental regulation in their sights. And on top of all of that, their cars suck. Bailing out the auto companies whose single-minded devotion to SUV’s made them blind to the hybrid revolution is like bailing out a record company that hasn’t had a hit since “The Macarena”. Screw them - Greg Sauders posting in Tom Tomorrow
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karhoo1 said:
quote:
“When it comes to bailing out the auto industry, count me in the “let them starve” camp. The auto industry has been outsourcing American jobs for 25 years now with little regard for the devastated communities...


The auto industry employs approx 250,000 people and outsources (within America) about another 4 million.

(n.b. these extra 4 million aren't necessarily fill-time, auto-industry only jobs)
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garethw said:
GM's market cap in June was $7b and they're the biggest (I believe). So the three of them must be asking for a bailout in excess of their total market capitalisation. If the Govt gives them $25b then they should own them, or at least a huge percentage.
Do what Cullen did with AirNZ.


The commentary I've read suggests 25b wouldn't even be enough, it would be like throwing money at a sinking ship.

It might be enough to assist a merger though but there would still have to be massive cut backs and a reinvention of the industry.
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Rips said:
a reinvention of the industry.

This.
The Govt is not the best person to drive that, but they have to come at it from the welfare POV - but might as well then protect their investment, act as an activist shareholder, appoint a high-powered board to move them to a modern footing.

If it wasn't for the millions of jobs implications, I'd say let them fail too...
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to hell with the millions of jobs argument

leave it to market forces to sort out

the financial services is an entirely different kettle of fish as it affects us all in one way or another
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After this clusterfuck, how can people still think market forces are infallible?
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as far as the US car industry goes they are infallible
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and I'm tempted to say let the whole western capitalist kybosh fail kit and caboodle
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From the same blog post earlier, in case anyone decided to skip it (I think some important, valid and yes, unpopular points are being made here)

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The US economy is brutal in its supposed simplicity. The market is the decider - good companies prosper and bad ones fail.

That means if you make shitty products then you can generally expect to eventually go out of business.

Unless you are a US bank, airline or a car manufacturer it seems.

Unfortunately and blatantly (Ford and) GM ignored the portends, and continued to make gigantic gas guzzling, poorly constructed unsafe vehicles. They have spent years reaping the benefit of lax tax rules on those massive vehicles and now pretend to be blinded by the high oil prices and the disappearing demand from the post-bubbly economy. GM wants $25 billion, and 100,000 GM jobs and countless other jobs that are dependent on GM are at stake.

Shut the doors I say, shut the doors.

It’s time these companies (and those crappy US Airlines) were pushed into the incinerator. Out of the ashes we can expect to see one, five or even ten or twenty new, innovative and cool companies that form to fill the vacuum. We will all be richer for it.

Put them into Chapter 7 (that’s receivership where you shut the doors), chop them into pieces and sell the assets off division by division. Canny buyers will grab factories, brands and even those car loans and will operate them far more efficiently. The debt holders are in charge in a receivership situation, and this is one situation where some tough decisions should be made.

Wouldn’t it be great to see those GM brands independent again? Not just the crappy ones like Buick, Saturn and GM, but businesses like Cadillac, Chevrolet and Holden that have some following and legacy. Then there are relatively unspoiled brands like Saab, Opel and Daewoo. Imagine them all under independent ownership, scaled back and concentrating on selling quality vehicles. Imagine their suppliers in the same way.

Wouldn’t it be better for employees in the medium term to work for smaller, more dynamic, local and much more fun companies? There needs to be some pain now though, as it is just not sustainable to keep making Ladas when the economy doesn’t demand it.

Some of that $25 billion (or whatever) could go towards covering the disappearance of the pensions for former US based workers, while adding yet another nail in the coffin of private health care.

The rest could go to creating smart incentives for the new companies to invest in clean technology would help guide them, while other startups would also emerge to provide the required parts.

The motorcycle industry a few years back figured out that it was really easy to design, manufacture and sell a much vaster range of faster and safer bikes. The technology seemed to just be there and so now a young company (like Triumph or KTM) can create a compelling yet eclectic range of vehicles. Even staid BMW got into the game and is now producing everything from race bikes to 400 enduros and of course beefy adventure and touring bikes.

US based Harley Davidson is also producing great bikes these days, which begs a final thought - what if Harley Davidson and KTM each took over one of GM’s brands? Wouldn’t they make great vehicles?



<update. Ford is selling down their stake in Mazda from 33 to 13% - and lose control, while, and GM sold down their final 3% stake in Suzuki. Actually they sold 17% of Suzuki just 2 years ago to pay for “restructuring costs” and GM has now had Hummer on the block for a month or three>

<upate 2: Chapter 11 can provide some teeth - Ch11 is the “do a big reorg and trade out” version of bankruptcy. Here’s Micheal Levine in the WSJ.

After 42 years of eroding U.S. market share (from 53% to 20%) and countless announcements of “change,” GM still has eight U.S. brands (Cadillac, Saab, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Chevrolet and Hummer). As for its more successful competitors, Toyota (19% market share) has three, and Honda (11%) has two.

GM has about 7,000 dealers. Toyota has fewer than 1,500. Honda has about 1,000

Federal law provides a way out of the web: reorganization under Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy code. If GM were told that no assistance would be available without a bankruptcy filing, all options would be put on the table. The web could be cut wherever it needed to be. State protection for dealers would disappear. Labor contracts could be renegotiated. Pension plans could be terminated, with existing pensions turned over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. (PBGC). Health benefits could be renegotiated. Mortgaged assets could be abandoned, so plants could be closed without being supported as idle hindrances on GM’s viability. GM could be rebuilt as a company that had a chance to make vehicles people want and support itself on revenue. It wouldn’t be easy but, unlike trying to bail out GM as it is, it wouldn’t be impossible.
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"karhoo1" said:
From the same blog post earlier, in case anyone decided to skip it (I think some important, valid and yes, unpopular points are being made here)

quote:


Unfortunately and blatantly (Ford and) GM ignored the portends, and continued to make... poorly constructed unsafe vehicles.


er actually no

ford and its volvo unit have made some of the safer products

only chrysler failed on safety score mainly due to under performing head restraints
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"Night Rider" said:
karhoo1 said:
From the same blog post earlier, in case anyone decided to skip it (I think some important, valid and yes, unpopular points are being made here)

quote:


Unfortunately and blatantly (Ford and) GM ignored the portends, and continued to make... poorly constructed unsafe vehicles.


er actually no

ford and its volvo unit have made some of the safer products

only chrysler failed on safety score mainly due to under performing head restraints


Re Ford, wasn't that the same company that got done for trying to cover up a production fault (brakes was it?) with one of its models, deciding it was cheaper to pay off any lawsuits than it was to cope the cost of a recall?

Or am I thinking of another American car?
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karhoo, that article is all good and I certainly agree with the desired outcomes for the car industry, but he completely ignores the transition cost for both the economy and the individuals involved.
You can't jump to that new model that quickly, or the existing management would have done it.
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don't know but I'm just going by a report I saw yesterday

now cerberus, who bought chrysler off daimler benz are slugging it out with them over the well stuffed turkey they bought Laughing

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10545334
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garethw said:
karhoo, that article is all good and I certainly agree with the desired outcomes for the car industry, but he completely ignores the transition cost for both the economy and the individuals involved.
You can't jump to that new model that quickly, or the existing management would have done it.


I realise that, I just introduced that as a 'food for thought' thing Smile


(Personally though I have a distaste for people/companies that for years have rode on arrogance and an unshakeable 'we are the best' mentality. And when all starts looking bleak, they hold a gun to the government's head asking for salvation, or the sacrifice will be the public - not the people who are truly responsible for the situation... the ones making the decisions on top).
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what are the next picks for big industries asking for US Tax payers money in a multi billion dollar bailout?
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bob daktari said:
what are the next picks for big industries asking for US Tax payers money in a multi billion dollar bailout?


Treasury.
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Yeah its tough because no one wants to rescue the execs from their own stupidity but at the same time you don't want to see all those people out of work.

I'd prefer to see a socially responsible take over than a bail out.
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Ps. I have no idea if there has ever been such a thing as a "socially responsible take over" but that's the best I could come up with. Laughing

Would that be like what happened with Air New Zealand?
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Here is a plan I heard on the radio:

Sack all the executives. Put Steve Job's in charge of GM and task him to develop a revolutionary Apple iCar.

Put Bill Gates in charge of Ford and tell him to develop a revolutionary Microsoft eCar.


Then tell them its a winner takes all competition.
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LOL fishy if you'd read that link in the op you'd have read just that same plan
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...but I can understand your reluctance given that "the Herald shows a systematic and dreary hard right ideological bias that pre-disposes it towards a defeatist, branch office editorial mentality".
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Nationalisation of industry is the ONLY solution

Socialism now, socialism tomorrow!
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The US is working hard to achieve that for you vadinho
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I just don't see the point of baling them out, no amount of money will save them they will fail regardless because they make shit products and have no competitive advantage. Sure it sucks that people will lose their jobs but the alternative is throwing money down a black hole, the US car makers will fail, everyone has seen it coming and no amount of money will save them.
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It would be politically dangerous to be seen to be doing nothing.

They do have a competitive advantage... americans are stupid and addicted to large SUVs Razz
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Night Rider said:
don't know but I'm just going by a report I saw yesterday

now cerberus, who bought chrysler off daimler benz are slugging it out with them over the well stuffed turkey they bought Laughing

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10545334[/quote]

quote:
More concerns have been raised about the wisdom of one of New Zealand's biggest listed-company deals in the past two years.

Graham Mackenzie, former managing director of Formica's New Zealand operation, said staff at Fletcher Building were not the only ones worried about the company's purchase of the US Formica Corporation last May....

"Fletchers were stitched up and this is not a matter of the sub-prime mortgage collapse," he said, criticising the US$700 million paid last year when the vendors had bought the business for only US$175 million three years before.

Fletcher is being sued by Formica's private equity vendors Cerberus Capital Management and Oaktree Capital Management for US$21 million in the New York Supreme Court over final payments they claim are due.


Laughing Laughing well, cerberus you have some explaining to do
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capitalism delivers ironies in spades