Toyota

Hmm, no F1 wins yet! well over a billion dollars spent too!!

Pouring in money helps but it isn't the full recipe for success!! You need the talent throughout the team. Im talking design team, engineers. They have some good people there but like any new team they have a lot to learn. I think they are doing ok. Im impressed with Redbull and BMW though!!

They utterly have the wrong mentality not to mention a pretty average driver line-up.

They are most definitely not a new team though. They are underperforming by their goals for sure....Ex-technical director Mike Gascoigne even left the team under weird circumstances to be replaced by a nobody.

RW

Well new compared to McLaren and Toyota.

I dont know what goes on at the team. But they are mid-field, and should possibly be a little higher.

What are their goals?

They are where they should be. Their car is too 'boxy'.. too conservative a progression on last year's car which, by 1/3 of the way through last season, was already showing signs of being at it's limit of development. They should have scrapped it and started fresh.. somehow the Japanese teams have trouble thinking ahead far enough or to take the risks they need to be.

RW

they new , and too cocky!!

IMO I think they are doing alright. They are still having a few teething problems, but meh. They have like a 150 points dont they? Into their 5th season. Thats an average of 30 points a season. In only their 5th!

Toyota are not a new team and they are underperforming by miles. That's it. No explanation required.

RW

It's there 5th season. What do you consider new?

they useless

these teams that start from scratch, should build up to it

So, newer than Toyota are: BMW Sauber, Redbull, Torro Rosso, Super Aguri and Spyker.. basically 5 out of 12 teams..41% of the grid.

RW

Spyker - Bought Midland, who 2 years before bought Jordan. Jordan started in 1991 I think.

BMW Sauber - BMW used to be with Williams from 2000-06.

Redbull - Bought off Jaguar, which was bought off Stewart Grand Prix backed by Ford.

Torro Rosso - Bought of Minardi, who started in 1985.

Super Aguri - Doing really well. But basically a Honda B team. There fist car was based on an Arrows. They started in 1977.

All these "new" teams had some experience to draw from. But Toyota started from scratch. Teams hit spots where finding more speed gets harder and harder. Look at the Maccas, they have only just come back to become competitive with Ferrari. Personally I think the Toyota drivers are crap.

If you're going to post a largely pointless lists about how old F1 teams are then I'll post a list of key F1 design staff who left teams to go and work at Toyota.

They are NOT a new team by F1 Standards. Accept it. F1 technical staff, aside from key people, move around a lot. I know someone who worked for BAR - the Jaguar when it changed from Stewart - then BAR again - then Toyota... all in six years. This is very common and done each time basically for a pay-rise as teams bounce people around and covert other team's crew.

Practically every mid-back running team is a progression of a team they bought. It doesn't make it any easier to do anything by buying an underperforming team. Starting from scratch is often easier. You can select key people, get the culture right from the get-go, get sponsors on-board who either have vision or wont hold old dealing against your reputation, and you have access to the enthusiasm of the drivers who really want to go somewhere with a new team (instead of just being happy to be in F1).

FYI, re: BMW Sauber. Having made engines for someone previously matters dick in F1. Having made a whole car is what matters which is why even BMW, the massive org that they are, wasn't arrogant enough to think they could do it from scratch as well as buying a high performing team like Sauber Petronas which performed very well considering it was a small private team.

RW

Sauber was my favouirte of the lower teams.

Well I think Toyota have proven it's not that easy to build a new car from scratch. If they have all the personal and talent what's the reason for them not winning any Grands Prix?

They didn't keep any of those people long enough as a group to get good team-mentality going... and the ones they did keep probably got into 'maintenance' mode, fixing flaws instead of aiming for the next season... and trying to keep their head down and not lose their job..

The Japanese just don't know how to create the right culture for the F1 business.

RW
RW

Let's add this to the conversation now...

Button is apparently thinking of trying to get out of his Honda contract because..... because because... of Japanese team incompetence.

From F1 Racing Magazine: "Honda's decline can be traced back to the surprise appointment of Nakamoto last summer as their Technical Director following Geoff Willis' ousting despite his total absence of F1 experience. 'What he did have - and still has - is a firm friendship with Takeo Fukui, Honda's president and CEO."

The magazine also quotes Honda engineers 'openly describing Nakamoto as "out of his depth."'

A consequence of his incompetence could be Button seeking to break his third contract in four years.


They just don't have the mindset to succeed it seems. They're so good at methodical and incremental improvements but just not out-of-the-box enough to come up with and back themselves on funky innovative ideas.

RW

Anyone see "inside GP" last night before the Monaco GP? It talked about how many nationalities worked at Toyota and how, in the factory, most spoke in German... while their were senior engineers who spoke Italian/Japanese or poor English.

Wonder what their problem really is? This sums up Toyota's problems in a nutshell.

Ralf Schumacher finished 16th, Jarno Trulli in 15th. Only the Super Aguri cars, running with modified 2006 cars finished behind them.

Interestingly, the other team with primarily Japanese management/senior engineers, Honda... finished 10th and 11th.

Shameful really.

RW

Well if thats the reason for their poor performances then they will probably pull the pin on the sport.