3415 of 62460 members online
Coffee Machines 720 GetFrank GymJunkie Menu Mania Snow Surf Varsity

Forgot Your Password? Create Account
[quote]
kinda sums everything up

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16274

"The Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons."
– George Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in a speech in Cincinnati.

Today, more than three months after Bush's stirring declaration of war and nearly two months since he declared victory, no chemical, biological or nuclear weapons have been found, nor any documentation of their existence, nor any sign they were deployed in the field.

The mainstream press, after an astonishing two years of cowardice, is belatedly drawing attention to the unconscionable level of administrative deception. They seem surprised to find that when it comes to Iraq, the Bush administration isn't prone to the occasional lie of expediency but, in fact, almost never told the truth.
[quote]
and 2 months after "victory" they are still fighting!! i still think they are going to have to withdraw after a while. they just won't be able to stay there for years.....

<sarcasm>
but rimu, it's all okay that they lied and decieved us and the rest of the world because now the iraqi's are FREE, FREEEEEE i TELLSSS YA!!!!!!!!
</sarcasm>

fuck u america, your time will come.
[quote]
quote:
i still think they are going to have to withdraw after a while. they just won't be able to stay there for years

This from the same person who thought the Americans were going to die in the thousands fighing Saddams 'special republican guard'? rofl
[quote]
trapper: i hadn't forseen that they would be bribed into not fighting. if they had actually fought, my comments still stand. i feel it would have been a slaughter on both sides if they had held their ground.

what are your thoughts on the actual topic of this thread tho trapper?
[quote]
I think it's the same discussion we have had 1000 times... Smile
[quote]
trapper said:
This from the same person who thought the Americans were going to die in the thousands fighing Saddams 'special republican guard'? rofl


Well the war is officially over but Coalition forces are still being killed

Perhaps these Republican gaurds are yet to fight (doubtful yes, but who knows...) or are currently fighting, though just not in the manner everyone expected. Damn them Iraqis and there complete lack of understanding of modern warfare, they were all meant to die waiting to fight like last time....

There's plenty of time of yet for the Coalitions body count to climb, this conflict is a long way from over.
[quote]
Trapper said,

I think it's the same discussion we have had 1000 times...


I think there is two or three people here trying to convince themselves the war was wrong, if they repeat it often enough and ad in quotes from extremist anti US propaganda sites they might succeed in brain washing themselves.
[quote]
cactus_genie said:
fuck u america, your time will come.


be careful what you wish for.....
[quote]
bad_seed said:
I think there is two or three people here trying to convince themselves the war was wrong, if they repeat it often enough and ad in quotes from extremist anti US propaganda sites they might succeed in brain washing themselves.


There's millions of people around the world trying to see the reason for the invasion and all we are fed is lies, lies and more damned lies, at least the so called anti-US media etc. are generally consistant with their concerns/points

If it was all about Regime change then great, now free the fucking people!
If it was WMD - where is the proof (how many times must we ask....)

I'll keep repeating my concerns and be cynical of the US motivations until I see any justification for the Invasion that I can believe, from any source

My perspective, theres 2 or 3 people here who can't just bring themselves to admit this isn't panning out the way it should from what we've been told. Perhaps them damn tree hugging hippies have a point or two. Maybe they are right. Somewhere in between the two camps there is the truth and just who can we believe - Bush, Blair, Fisk..... who?
[quote]
bad_seed said:
Trapper said,

I think it's the same discussion we have had 1000 times...


I think there is two or three people here trying to convince themselves the war was wrong, if they repeat it often enough and ad in quotes from extremist anti US propaganda sites they might succeed in brain washing themselves.


are you 2 so blind you cannot see that the wool has been pulled over your eyes? or are you so stubborn and arrogant that you can't accept that you were wrong? or are so far stuck up bush's ass that you actually support the misleading of millions for the cause of money and power?
[quote]
lol cactus_genie, I think someone is starting to sound a lot like our new friend Pixil :p

Why is it so hard for you to understand that other people might simply have different opinions to you?


Although maybe me and bad_seed really are just another part of Bush's conspiracy! woooo spooky, I bet you have nightmares about it tonight. hahah
[quote]
if you have an different opinion that's fine. however i base my opinions on FACT (sound familiar??). if you can back up your opinion with fact then fair enough, go on, change my mind. make me raise my hand to the american flag in admiration.... Rolling Eyes

how about you rebut that article and say why it's not true and you don't believe the us lied?
[quote]
Cactus, you don't base your opinion on fact, like i said you base it on extremist propoganda and quotes out of context from blair and bush that you or these websites claim to be the reson for the war, the reasons were made very clear for months leading up to it and really it is quite simple.

these might give you a hint

1441
1284
1205
1194
1154
1137
1134
1115
1060
1051
949
715
707
688
687
686
678

UN Security Council Presidential Statement, June 28, 1991
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, February 5, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, February 19, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, February 28, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, March 6, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, March 11, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, March 12, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, April 10, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, June 17, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, July 6, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, September 2, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, November 23, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, November 24, 1992
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, January 8, 1993
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, January 11, 1993
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, June 18, 1993
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, June 28, 1993
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, November 23, 1993
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, October 8, 1994
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, March 19, 1996
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, June 14, 1996
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, August 23, 1996
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, December 30, 1996
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, June 13, 1997
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, October 29, 1997
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, November 13, 1997
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, December 3, 1997
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, December 22, 1997
UN Security Council Presidential Statement, January 14, 1998

Anyway .... end of rant, this subject has been done like a dinner and who really cares WE WON FFS!!!!!!! Laughing
[quote]
we won? so that's why people are still getting killed eh?
[quote]
What the whole debate about this shows is that people need to pick who to listen to. Hopefully most will read from both sides and get an accurate view. Unfortunately the fighting tends to be between the groups who have just taken one side and stuck with it. Its good to see people like the 2 bobs and FB who can see both sides rather than just one. The invasion while wrong has had good consequences but the US (and to a lesser extent the UK) have provided misleading info. Hopefully the killing will stop from both sides and iraq will have peace soon. Unfortunately the reality is the fighting will continue as both sides refuse to see it from the others viewpoint, same as what happens on here.
[quote]
If those resolutions were enough to go to war, then the UN would have supported it.

The UN did not support the war therefore those resolutions don't have enough backing to go to war.
[quote]
Rolling Eyes

Winning a war and occupying a country isn't a two minute deal... no one ever said it would be... Rolling Eyes

I find one thing really interesting... clearly they've found none of these illegal weapons yet (except for a few of those missiles I think they nabbed). So the real question is WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

Everyone KNOWS they used to have them. Even Iraq accepts that. We even know they USED them. And now they've totally vanished without a trace. They have to be somewhere.

wee-ooo wee-ooo
[quote]
You need to read those resolutions more carefully Cactus, all the reason needed was in there .... i guess the proof is in the fact the UN hasn't taken any action against the US or UK, therefore effectively sanctioning the action they took.



Smile
[quote]
cactus_genie said:
If those resolutions were enough to go to war, then the UN would have supported it.

The UN did not support the war therefore those resolutions don't have enough backing to go to war.


The UN didn't go to war because France and Russia have enormous economic interest in Iraq not being "liberated". To give you just one example...

A one dollar shift in the price of crude oil per barrel equates to an 80 billion dollar shift in the Russian economy.

"Liberating" Iraq leads to a drop in the value of crude oil because suddenly there's much more available, so Russia's economy plummets. Don't fool yourself into thinking France and Russia were looking after the world's best interests. Take a look at France's history and you'll see a disturbing foreign policy that makes the US look like the Easter Bunny.

wee-ooo wee-ooo
[quote]
while france and russia were probably against the war for their own selfish reasons, it's misleading to suggest that they were the only countries who didn't back bush.
[quote]
it's also misleading to suggest that the US didn't have their own selfish reason to go to war, so they are ALL as bad as each other.
[quote]
To satisfy my curiosity Cactus, Stylin, Rimu, Bob .... are you displeased that Saddam is not longer in power, or are you pleased he is gone?
[quote]
of course i'm glad that saddam is gone, however it's the means by which he was removed that i don't like.

if the US had gone in there with the intention of liberating iraqi's and regime change then that would be fair enough.

The problem is that they lied and misled everyone in order to go to war. it's the dishonesty that has bred this mistrust.
[quote]
I'm pleased Saddam is gone (who wouldn't be - excluding his family etc) - however I also believe by looking at similar events of US (most western nations) involvement over the past 50 years that the chances are very high that the next Iraqi leader of Iraq will be of a similar nature

Its the people who are paying for these mindless games, with their lives and that sucks! As per usual
[quote]
Rolling Eyes

I saw a BBC programme on this which analysed the reasons for going in there...

Basically, the end result was that the JUSTIFIABLE reason for going in was as follows:

There was a CEASEFIRE (this means the war never ended) of hostilities in 1991 following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Iraq was ordered to follow certain conditions.

My dates are hazey here, but I think it was 1993 or 94 the ceasefire ended briefly because Iraq expelled the UN (i.e. weren't meeting the 91 requirements).

There was a SECOND ceasfire with the same general conditions.

In 1997 hostilities again resumed after the UN personnel were taken hostage. They were freed by US Delta operatives.

There was a third ceasefire, again with the same general conditions.

In 2002 hostilities were again resumed after it was decided by some elements of the Multi-national Task Force that the only way of ensuring Iraq met its 1991 obligations was by forcing a regime change in the country.

Now this is the LEGAL justification for the invasion, believe it if you wish, reject it if you wish... it's just another consideration to add to the simmering pot as we each make up our own minds.

Personally I think the whole "terrorism" thing was merely something the Americans employed to get their own people onside because the US population couldn't care less about the UN and it's laws, and certainly doesn't want Americans dying to enforce them. However they'll happily send troops to fight terrorism.

You'll notice the Americans never pushed the terrorism thing in dealings internationally and the British never used it as a justification. Just interesting notes...

wee-ooo wee-ooo
[quote]
fire_engine: that's all well and good, but WHY DIDN'T THEY MAKE THIS CLEAR BEFORE THE WAR???

not yelling at you, just the world in general. i just wish they had made things clear to start with not all this bollocks about WMD and terrorist connections and what have you...


*is frustrated*
[quote]
The terrorism card is being used more and more since the end of the war, leading up to and during it wasn't mentioned at all

Theres a good article that mentions this I read on one of them Anti US sites, so I won't bore everyone with the link Smile

At no point prior to the Invasion did the security council condone an invasion. As far as I know and have read the Security Council put a lot of pressure on Iraq to comply with the resolutions and just prior to the invasion Iraq was complying, to some degree, some would say they were being very co-operative and others not at all, depedning on ya perspective

If there was some consistancy from the US administration, their coalition partners and the media then perhaps we wouldn't have to keep debating the same points over and over again

I predict their will be further and possibly endless justifications put forward as those who have acted continue to try and justify what is now done.
[quote]
Quote

The terrorism card is being used more and more since the end of the war, leading up to and during it wasn't mentioned at all

and

but WHY DIDN'T THEY MAKE THIS CLEAR BEFORE THE WAR???


suggest you two go back and read the final couple of addresses by Bush and Blair, your points are covered in them.

Selective Memory?
[quote]
Bad memory sometimes, not sure what I've missed and can't find anything doing a search Smile

Got a link to them speeches or a site that will paraphrase them in a manner you're happy with I could read

My most recent read along these lines contained

quote:
DEPUTY DEFENSE Secretary Paul Wolfowitz has given away the game. In a recent Vanity Fair magazine interview, he acknowledged that all of this discussion about needing to go to war on Iraq in order to disarm the country was just, as he called it, "bureaucratic."

It was a way of selling the war because it was a goal that different parts of the government and allies of the U.S. could agree on. But it was just a public relations lie in order to get people on board for a war that was being fought for other reasons.

If you look at public support for the war, it was based on a deliberate lie that there was a connection between Iraq and the September 11 attacks. Public opinion polls show that nearly half of the U.S. population believed there was a connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda, when absolutely no evidence exists for this claim.

The Bush and Blair governments repeatedly talked about the ties between Iraq and international terrorism generally--and specifically al-Qaeda, even though al-Qaeda has a long history of hostility toward the government of Iraq. The intelligence community in the U.S. and Britain consistently said that they had no evidence to link the two.

On May 30, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof quoted an anonymous Defense Intelligence Agency source who was "privy to all the intelligence there on Iraq." He told Kristof, "The American people were manipulated. The Al-Qaeda connection and nuclear weapons issue were the only two ways that you could link Iraq to an imminent security threat to the U.S."

Greg Thielmann, who retired last September after 25 years in the State Department--the last four in the Bureau of Intelligence and Research--said, "The administration was grossly distorting the intelligence on both things." Interestingly, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman’s reaction to all this is to say it’s perfectly okay that the U.S. can get away with these kinds of lies and arrogance.

Control of oil is the primary motivation for this war. It’s why Iraq was a target for war. It’s why the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein in the 1970s and ’80s when he was an ally and a friend--when Donald Rumsfeld met with him in Baghdad. It’s why the U.S. is going to occupy Iraq until it can impose a government that’s suitable to U.S. interests. And it’s why Iran and Syria are now in the crosshairs.


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=3761

Though I doubt you'll agree with what this writer has to say due to the source - yes?

Not sure what I'm missing, so please feel free to enlighten me
[quote]
bad_seed: i don't understand how you can deny that we were lied to. i think it is you with the selective memory.
[quote]
Exactly.

The goalposts DO keep changing.

First it was WMD, then it was liberation, then it was regime change...
Now it is WMD 'programmes' ie. bits of paper.

Rolling Eyes Mad
[quote]
An interesting website is www.whatreallyhappened.com. Not too sure of its credibility, but it's always interesting to look at things from another perspective.
[quote]
I just wanted to disclose some information...

Whenever a news media company discloses information like "A Pentagon Official Privy to all the Intelligence in Iraq" these are actually faked to give their article credability.

The people who actually "do" know what is going on don't talk to the media... security at that intelligence level is incredibly tight and the people in those positions would never reveal secure information as it can compromise the operation and more specifically the lives of their people.

I would suggest no one ever believes such media "sources". The only information that can be regarded as from a genuine source is information disclosed by the PR people or by people such as the CO giving his briefings.

It's a common media technique when they hear a rumour or some civilian employee in the military mouths off about something they don't really know about to lie and beef up the "source".

This is just something you should be aware of when reading newspapers...

wee-ooo wee-ooo
[quote]
might be easier if we listed the truths we've been told

1 - ummmmmmmm

any suggestions Confused