Student Loan Changes

So fucking short sighted... I thought they were trying to stop the brain drain, this is just going to force more people overseas, not long before NZ has a skills shortage in all areas

what are the changes resist?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10802859

tax the young to pay for the old high earners who got the lions share of the tax cuts

now thats a brighter future

i heard something about them also targeting people with student loans overseas too?

aah don't worry, just read the article

I always worry about you Davil

thanks.

It has a crazy inevitability to it.
Impoverish the working classes then society (and the entire economy) suffocates.
I dont know how NZ compares, but this is a graphic representation of US student loan debt:

according to the herald story ours is 11 billion - thats 11 billion invested in our young (or at least those studying) - or maybe one coudl say 11 billion invested in providing educated people for aussie jobs

no changes to the retirement age or pensions planned

there are disadvantages for some in not being a boomer...

* Why do the right only ever see education as a cost, not an investment, despite piles of evidence.
* Why are they so scared of touching the interest write-offs? Since when do young students vote tory anyway, so who cares about it being "electoral suicide"?
* Why are the young and the working class second-class citizens with deep pockets compared to the old and the rich?

On the other hand, I agree with chasing down overseas debtors, if you've left to pursue the big foreign dollar, you can pay your fucking bills. And in contrary with what my views are, fact is the growing mountain of student debt is a pretty major concern and something *does* need to be done about it, and I think repayment levels are pretty low.

But that's not what this is about, it's about plugging a hole in the budget caused by tax cuts for rich whitey.

Also interesting is the new focus announced on "knowledge economy" education. Now if only they'd follow that up by encouraging development of those industries here, rather than continuing to produce fresh graduates for the Australian mines.

Anyway, summary of this weeks law changes for youth:
*Fuck you students
*Fuck you young drinkers
*Rich white old men can keep their jobs and their $50k bribes, rest of you can get fucked

They probably felt a bit guilty about getting their grandchidren to pay for all of the baby boomer tax cut so now they are charging us as well.

Entry level jobs in my industry here are paying ~35k - on top of that I have to pay 19% on tax, 10+% on Student Loan, 15% on GST for everything I buy, that's a 44% tax rate(well 34% + 10% student loan repayment). That leaves me with around $376~ a week to live on. If I move to Australia I get around 55-60k, in my first year I don't pay any student loan, and their progressive tax rate means that I pay less tax than NZ, GST is lower and not charged on essential services and food/drink. It's retarded to think that people will want to stay when the option to pay back overseas is so much more viable.

This doesn't make any sense from a stop the brain drain perspective

But it is GOOD for those pesky students because they pay their debt off quicker

You forgot the continuation of the Fuck You Grandchildren policy.

I am genuinely gutted about the direction we are headed.



gc.

Yes but then they have even less money to spend so the economy further stagnates

lol dude, you can't just add 15% GST on to those other amounts, that's not how it works.

If this is the quality of students we're pumping out.......

lol sick burn :>

Student loan repayments are not a tax, they're repaying a loan. A small rise in repayment percent (1% for example) would also cost the person with the loan less and they'll pay it off quicker. For most people with loans the extra amount they'd likely would be insignificant on a weekly basis... $10 a week on a $52k income.

No political party would dare going for significant changes in this area... I'd be surprised if it even got raised to 12% (from 10%)

As always, the actual effect of this is about 1/10th of what it'll likely be made out by those at either end of the spectrum in terms of impact on people's daily lives. The cost increases of beer, energy drinks or some types of meat in the past year have had more effect on the average person's lot.


I agree... but also don't see why people overseas vs here are a hell of a lot different. Plenty of people go overseas as graduates for OEs, not the earn higher money. And many don't while they're in their first few years away - same as here.

I just can't see them substantially altering the repayment scheme for people living here.

Good news.

It's about time they tightened up Student Loan loan repayments - bit of a piss-take.

they're not tighting them up really though are they - they're just upping the repayment rate whilst also allegedly changing the criteria for access to allowances and the like

some would say this is simply revenue motivated and also making education less attractive to those whom have the least (and thus the most to gain from higher learning - good for society)

image if your bank did that to you

sorry John but you've now got to pay off your mortgage in five years not the twenty we'd arranged - don't worry one day you'll thank me cause you'll own your house debt free soooner (if you don't starve to death in the interim)

as for going after those offshore - how the hell do they do that? Other than it making a great sound bite (like getting tough on tax cheats)

Does the NZ govt know where you live/work/play when out of the country?

Right, lets clear this up, at current rates as per IRD PAYE calculator, tax code M SL (regular old single work a single job, no other income)

$35k = $673/wk gross
PAYE 110.36
Student Loan 30.60
Net Pay: 532.04

Our tax system means that while you're in the 19% bracket, you don't pay 19% of the total. In fact, it's not even 19% anymore, it's 17.5%. On the first $14k, you only pay 10.5%, and between 14,001 and 48k you pay 17.5. To that, add your 10% SL repayment. You don't add 15% GST flat to that amount, because you only pay GST when you spend your net pay on things you buy that attract GST. Yeah, I guess you can include it if you're spending each and every single dollar of that $532.04 a week, but hey....

You're legally required to advise IRD of your whereabouts for starters. They also data-match with IRD so they'd pick you up coming and going.

I see repayment of my student loan as a tax contingency given that it is contingent on income. Pretty sure that's how they have always been seen by the people who implemented them from the beginning. Check out Hansard maybe...

[edit in reply to kris] so for those whom don't advise the IRD and don't come and go?

I'd suggest those most likely to not be paying back their loans with perhaps the intent of never returning or just dealing with it later (not an uncommon attitude amongst some) - if this group exists, as I've assumed, then these are the people the govt wants to crack down on, and with no record of where they are thats all but impossible, or am I way off course here as I am ignorant of the loans scheme and how it operates

How can it be "revenue" motivated when they coughed up the cash and lent you the money in the first place?

They're just getting the money back quicker - which is good for them, good for the borrowers, and good for the country

I can't speak to how it works specifically in this situation, but you'd probably be surprised to learn how many reciprocal agreements there are between governments, particularly around tax issues.

IRD: Hello Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, do you happen to have any tax records regarding NZ citizen Bob Daktari?
HMRC: Why certainly we do, here you go.

Sort of thing.....

Coughed up the money THEY USED TO PAY ANYWAY and now instead make interest off you, lets not forget that...this all came into place from people in power who got their education scott free...and while I was learning, they were fucking charging me interest while I had absolutely no fucking way of making any payments...and I had to take extra living costs allowance because according to their means testing, my parents were too rich for me to be allowed a student allowance when my folks could barely make their mortgage/bill payments

Fuck them, fuck them right in their greasy money grubbing eyeholes man...this change is bullshit and will just make NZ's brain drain worse...damn near everyday I see/read shit about what's happening in NZ and much as it's a lovely country, it makes me so damn glad I'm not still living there and struggling like almost everyone is

... oh fuck... leaves UK moves to Poland...

I can see that happening Kris - but I can also see govt depts being gutted so the potential for more work to come from less is, um, aspirational... not that it couldn't or wouldn't happen but I'll stick with my gut instinct that its more a good soundbite than something that will have the time, energy and resources put in to actually do much more than currently happens

Grinder - its only good for the borrowers if they can afford whatever the increase will be (ie it doesn't dramatically impact on their curent means of living) and the timeline for implementation, ie prior warning

by revenue motivated I am suggesting that its about getting $ into the govts kitty sooner than later - as in plugging some of the gaps that the shortfall in tax revenue and slow down in the economy have created - not that the money isn't owed and due in good course

1. So you're proposing that the government offers free tertiary education for all? Good luck with that.

2. Student Loans are Interest Free.

Heh.. did you miss the point in that they are going to bring back interest Grinder.

I dunno I'm finding it hard to be too upset about this, but I can't say yay its a good thing either. Maybe I've become so desensitised about Govenment policy that this seems bland in comparison to all the other shit.

As long as they don't charge interest until you hit the repayment threshold and as long as its low rate.

But, I don't think its going to discourage many people from taking large loans.

Can someone tell me what the average fees are per year? Say for 7 papers doing BCom at The University of Auckland.

They're not?

Heh.. my mistake. Everything I have said in this thread is invalid

Yeah I dunno if I'm too upset about it at all now..

Fuck you whinging cunts we had to pay interest while we were studying!

I'm still interested in Fees by the way.

Resist how much are fees?

I think a phd is $7k per year
Commerce degrees pfttt

If you mail me 1k you will be fine.

1. That's how it used to be, so sure, why the fuck not?

2. They are...NOW...they weren't when I needed it and they even charged interest while people were studying and couldn't possible repay...I haven't been refunded any of that money, have you?

And by this, if you didn't have students leaving Uni with approx $20K+ worth of debt, perhaps they wouldn't be so tempted to go overseas where the money is better and it's easier to A) escape the debt or B) actually pay it back

why would you be refunded interest payments when that was the terms of the loan when you took it out?

Heh, thats not cheap.. but PHD students have more opportunity to earn money while studying don't they?

I was just interested in comparing undergrad because thats what I'm familar with.

I think mine were about $3600 a year. My older brothers were about $300 a year. (Seven year age difference)

fortunately the uni pays it for me
I think they set undergrad the same (in arts)

I never said I should, just that they've made it interest free now/stopped charging while people are learning, yet fucking raped me and thousands of others back in the day...so it's bullshit, those who were charged interest WHILE studying should get that removed from their loans imo

I don't know about that, we agreed to the terms of the contract at the time.

I didn't actually have a massive student loan really because I also worked 20 hours a week or so... sometimes 30, and fulltime every holidays.

Which was basically thursday night, friday night and 12 hours every Saturday, (12 hours on Sundays when I could).. while all my friends were off having fun

Cue violin.

and we all thought you were a wastrel

I'll repay my student loan when the boomers pay back the money that was paid out in pensions and agree to not make me pay for their retirement. And if they don't... well fuck em, I'll declare bankruptcy.

actually, that's not how it works.

Closer to the truth is

IRD: Hello Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, do you happen to have any tax records regarding NZ citizen Bob Daktari? We'd like to pursue her for her student loan.
HMRC: We don't chase our borrowers overseas, we're not going to do you dirty work for you. Good bye.


Although that might change in the future.

Also, this is so incredibly stupid. As a PhD student you're actually working to advance human knowledge. You're being productive. You're producing a public good. As they expect you to pay for it. Reminds me of the Monty Python 4 Yorkshireman sketch where the one said "we used to pay the boss for the privilege of coming to work!".

Glad I did my PhD in Australia where there are no fees for PhDs or research masters degrees.

That short-sightedness is going to come back and bite NZ in the ass in the future.

Oh course, all PhDs are being productive in the broader scheme of things.

Stuff.co.nz: PhD in the habits of Bogans

Just showing how ignorant you actually are Rob_W.... usually that's not something people are proud of.

But he found out that a Bogans' Physical appearance is obviously an important factor, a key way they express themselves, but actually, like everyone else, they behave differently in different groups.....





$100k of taxpayers coin later.

Certainly, this governments penchant for slashing and burning "useless backroom bureaucrats" is quite at odds with reality.

Prime example:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10798747

Well technically no, they aren't, you get charged interest on them, and once a year, if you're eligible, the interest gets written off. That's how they charge you interest once you leave NZ.

You'll note neil, that I said right at the start of that example, I said that I can't speak specifically to the situation with student loans. But, there are a heap of reciprocal agreements in place with regards to LOTS of things government departments do. Child support, pensions, that sort of thing.

For a man with a phd, your reading and comprehension could do with some work.

Humph!

Defensive much. I'm just giving you some information, and you instead decide to call me stupid? how does that work!

or, you know, you could read the actual thesis instead of judging it from a news story

Who decides what kind of research is valuable? You? Stephen Joyce? Research into social groups provides often invaluable data on the human condition. You're taking the piss out of this guys because LOL BOGAN PHD. You have no idea about the quality of his research, or what he's uncovered. Don't be so fucking stupid Rob, you're smarter than that.

Because you're posting like a smug arsehole again.

Just to provide a data point, that finished in 1989.

well said kris_b

As a country, we'd be totally remiss if we didn't at least investigate what has the better long term outcomes financially and socially.
- The status quo, with increasingly rising student and crown debt (remember, it costs the crown to provide that "interest free loan" since they are likely financing a chunk of it offshore to the tune of what, $700m+ a year I think it is?), and the financial and social loss to the country in graduates fucking off overseas.
- Or do we more fully fund university education from the start, removing the potential crippling debt issues, leading to better social outcomes?

I.e. what can we achieve with that $700m a year instead of paying interest to foreign banks?

Dude could potentially make a killing in advertising or market research though

Could also be relevant to the design of health programs targetting the Bogan massif (assuming they have expensive health issues that is)

OK so there's the first sentence of ya PhD. Only about 99,980 words to go - but not too many generic or vague wafflley stuff from here ok

Hilarious how people read news articles and believe they have the full story.

His research was on subcultures, can be applied to numerous social groups and gave an insight to how people form their identity.

Ok mate.

No shit. I have one mate.



Graduates fucking overseas, has fuck-all to do with the fact that the government pays for tertiary educations with interest-free fucking loans! People could do worse than stay in the country to pay off $50K worth of debt at ZERO interest and extra payment incentives/bonuses.

Those who feel we should fund free tertiary education. Where do you suggest the billions of dollars come from? Health? Extra taxes?

So he fucking should've for 100k, fuck my cat could've sorted that shit out for a measly 20k and a 10kg bag of Purina Chow

You'd have to be a complete total utter moron to suggest that a mountain of student loan debt isn't a consideration in many young NZ'ers leaving the country for extended periods of time to places with higher wages. I'm NOT saying it's the end all be all, but it's certainly an important part of the equation to look at.

FWIW I don't think it should be totally free. But we have to be fucking stupid to keep plugging forward the way were are. Go back and read what I said - I said maybe it's possible we can move the almost billion a year spend on student loans into the education system directly and achieve a better outcome. I don't know if it's remotely possible, but THAT'S WHAT INVESTIGATING IT IS FOR.

*sigh*

You just don't have a fucking clue what you're on about mate...

Dude thinks his cat can do a PhD.

right

National is in "let's shaft the students" mode, that's pretty clear.

Making students pay off more of their loans, sooner, AND on top of that, even tighter rules for student allowances ... is a recipe for hardship and will create a chilling effect on the pursuit of education.

John Key makes a typically facile comment "it's good for students cos they'll pay off their loans quicker."

What a cock.

If we truly are on the brink of a Greece-style economic meltdown, this might all be justifiable. But I don't think we are quite there yet. I would prefer to see cuts made in other areas instead of making students (and educated professionals) second-class citizens.

Well you know... if his cat works hard and is willing to put in the effort

Obviously from taxes? You say that like it's an issue. Countries that have decent healthcare and education have higher taxes, that's what it takes. It's not really a problem*..

edit: * except for greedy fkers who will lose the most in tax reform, but fuck em.

I was pointing out your all encompassing statement about productivity was nonsense - productivity to one person can be viewed as a complete waste to another. I imagine most people would consider a 100k funding of a study like the one I mentioned to be a complete waste of money and with no meaningful productive purpose.

It has nothing to do with value. It's whether money spent on higher learning is productive beyond the process of him completing the PhD. Many, many areas of education are a waste in this respect - but it's usually hard to identify which ones. When you narrow the focus more and more as you go up the chain towards PhD level the need for the research to be able to justify its own existence (and therefore funding) gets greater.

I made no comment on his research other than to refute Neil's complete bullshit claim re: PhDs creating productivity. Many do not. Whether or not this research discovers anything interesting, ground-breaking or not - without it creating productivity or further avenues for research it becomes, in effect, little different to a junket for the people involved.

Not really a problem unless you already have serious shortages of skilled labour matched with massive numbers of tertiary qualified graduates fucking off overseas because the money is better across the ditch. Increase the amount of taxes and the problem will get even worse. Good luck with that one. NZ isn't just like "other countries", we're an isolated case - tiny population tiny economy and we survive off tourism and agriculture, not the hundreds of other industries we qualify people for (so they can go work overseas).

I'm sorry, but you refuted nothing....

Doesn't seem like such a bad idea for people to clear debt more quickly ... although I can imagine it's gonna motivate more new graduates to go overseas to work ... pity the government can't offer free teriary education IF the person commits to staying in NZ working for x number of years.

I cashed in some investment and paid my loan off when I graduated ... well mum paid half and I paid half ... meant I was broke but no debt.

no everyone has a mum or means of their own

its not quite so simple for those who rely on their pay packet to survive - ie their ONLY income and means of support

any reduction of income hurts - given many people are struggling generally due to stagnant wages and ever increasing costs... this change will have a negative impact on many (depending to a degree what the increase is)

That would be nice if that actually came with a guarantee of a job...

I don't work overseas because I'm chasing "the big foreign dollar" (as kris_b suggests). I work overseas because it's the only place where I can get a job doing what I do.

There are comparatively sized countries that offer free tertiary education without the dairy and tourism cash cows we have. In fact some of these countries are forced to because students won'rt accept anything else and go on strike when fees are mooted.

Oh yeah, that's all true, and I recognise I am priveledged to have a mum who can pitch in for half, and that I've had the ability to save and invest money ...

I'm not being fastidious when I ask this, but what % of someones weekly pay goes on stuff that isn't esssential? I can't imagine that someone earning over about $600 net a week wouldn't have the ability to put some money away and/or clear more debt.

Accommodation: 200
Food: 100
Bills: 50
Petrol: 50

Am I being unrealistic with those prices? Cause that'd leave $200 ... that could then be $100 on the student loan every week and $100 to spend on stuff.

Where ya thinking? Do these countries have comparable tax levels to NZ?

I now I've said it before, but surely part of the reason why free tertiary education isn't an option is cause we have the lowest upper income tax rate in the OECD and no capital gains tax (unlike most other developed countries).

I agree, that'd be good ...

assuming that person is single, and not only doesn't have a family but also never intends to have one, and also never intends to save for their retirement or for a house etc. then yeah, sure, those numbers are realistic.

Northern, Southern, and Central Europe - but they have much higher tax rates and yet somehow they hold onto their populations despite having neighbours with lower tax rates.

maybe not having to go in search of culture, could have something to do with this?

$50 a week on bills realistic?

Power
Internet
Possible Landline
Cellphone
Possible digi tv
Insurance- Car
Insurance- Contents



etc etc

Ummmm, I've never earnt over $40k (currently earn well under), and have owned 4 houses (sold 3 obviously) and have finances pretty sorted. I think $650 net per week was the most I've ever earned .... and I've actualy done pretty well ... to be fair working in Japan for 2 years helped a lot I guess ... but I was already on my 2nd house before then and needed money to get to Japan in the first place and survive when I first got there.

You might be onto something with the single/family comment, it'd be hard yakka to sustain on on that kind of money/

Power and maybe car insurance are essential ... everything else in that lot is t do with choice. If you wanted to save money you could have cheap net (ie: 10 gig on woosh for $34.95), a 2 degrees cell ($24.95 / month) and no digital TV.

Power through Contact used to cost 3 of us between $90-$250 a month ($250 over twop months in winter) .... average would of been maybe $130 I guess.

Obviously more expensive when living alone though I guess.

If you choose to have expensive stuff where you need contents insurance, that is your choice. I've never had it, have been burgled twice, never lost anything that I stressed about.

So, I think $50 a week on bills is do-able.

are you a drug dealer or something itchy?

As if

I've always just been good with my finances and have never really wanted to own lots of shit I don't really need. I'm not bagging anyone who wants to own flash stereos, cars, clothes and electronic stuff, but that's all a choice and probably makes a huge difference to how much you can save and how much you have left over at the end of the week.

Good luck at flat interviews then, "yeah nah I am only willing to pay $50 a week towards bills".

Wow, I spend 50 bucks a week on veges/fruit alone. Can I live in your fun land Itchy?

I spend more than $50 a week catching the train to work..

I spend more than $50 a week on coke and hookers...

Didn't your parents pay for your house deposit or something...

Paying off your loan, paying for your house. Sounds like you're riding their coattails.