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That are there for the maintenance of fishing stocks. ie is it thier right to catch undersized fish or over the limits imposed per person?

Do maori fishing rights extend to introduced or deep seas fish?
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i don't think anybody should be able to catch undersized fish, and most coastal people (maori or otherwise) respect the reasons for the size limits...

and there are legitimate reasons for being able to take larger amounts of seafood for their community...

what you need to remember is it is always only bad individuals that take excessive amounts of seafood, or lots of things undersize etc - but like most things "all maori" become pidgeon-holed...
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you also must remember that asian people quite commonly take undersized fish or shellfish too.

i don't think anyone should be able to flaunt the laws that are there for a very good reason, cept by circumstance perhaps (and only on the number, not the size).
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Well are far as i know are there quota limits for private people, and limits for commerical and customary permits.

Everyone should obey the law, otherwise we are all gonna be fucked.
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Im thinking more in relation to the violence that fisheries officers are being subjected to, are they taking away a right of a group of people or is it just the mindset of the people they are dealing with.

Also in relation to maoris not needing a trout fishing licence in and around lake taupo. I dont see customary right extending to fishing that was unavailable to maori in thier customary times.
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Bob said:
Also in relation to maoris not needing a trout fishing licence in and around lake taupo. I dont see customary right extending to fishing that was unavailable to maori in thier customary times.


what about the trout displacing native fish species of the area..
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like?
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I don't know... I haven't done any research. I'm just wondering if this would affect your few. Because no doubt the introduction of trout has had an affect, I just can't tell you exactly what that affect is
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i wasn't even aware that the trout was introduced! Smile guess you learn something new everyday!

but like i said, don't go saying "maori" when fishing in lake taupo isn't applicable to all maori... if you want to talk about those iwi local to the area then great - those would be ngati tuwharetoa, and possibly te arawa at a stretch, but my iwi and more specifically my hapu have little to no interest in fishing rights in the lake.
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Everyone should obey the rules/laws and regulations....

they are there for a reason.
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If a fish like trout was introduced permission should have been acquired from the relevant tribes. The Treaty of Waitangi gives them rights over the land, lakes and rivers etc then they should be able to apply for some kind of customary fishing rights or specific rights to exceed a limit for a hui or tangi. Unfortunately there have been Maori who have abused these sought of rights.
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Supamaorifulla said:
i don't think anybody should be able to catch undersized fish, and most coastal people (maori or otherwise) respect the reasons for the size limits...

and there are legitimate reasons for being able to take larger amounts of seafood for their community...

what you need to remember is it is always only bad individuals that take excessive amounts of seafood, or lots of things undersize etc - but like most things "all maori" become pidgeon-holed...


Well Said.
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That wasnt my intention at all smf im saying maori in the broad sence because that is how the customary rights are established. There are many people overfishing and i think they are scum, especially the ones that are assaulting the fisheries staff. Im wondering if some these people (the ones being maori) can justifiably hide behind the customary title. To me ecological and fisheries management quotas are far more important and should rank on top of customary rights even if they are taking for thier community. They are not looking after thier community by over fishing and i cant believe some people are so shortsighted or selfish. Its a shame that a group who wants to be seen as looking after the land are being undermined by these people. Part of the reason this has come up is that i was reading that a kamatua was one of the people who abused a fisheries staff (who was also a maori) So there may be the expectation that maoris have a legitmate right to break the quotas.

The trout thing is even more ridiculous - customary rights are about tradition not ownership (unless you are saying they actually own the rivers?) and the trout licences are for the benefit of all so there are actually fish left in a few years time. What good would a customary right be if there are no fish.

For the pacific islanders, asians, white people or anyother person who breaks the rules there isnt even a hint of justification. I would personally like the police to be involved more with this kind of thing
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Bob said:
That wasnt my intention at all smf im saying maori in the broad sence because that is how the customary rights are established. There are many people overfishing and i think they are scum, especially the ones that are assaulting the fisheries staff. Im wondering if some these people (the ones being maori) can justifiably hide behind the customary title. To me ecological and fisheries management quotas are far more important and should rank on top of customary rights even if they are taking for thier community. They are not looking after thier community by over fishing and i cant believe some people are so shortsighted or selfish. Its a shame that a group who wants to be seen as looking after the land are being undermined by these people. Part of the reason this has come up is that i was reading that a kamatua was one of the people who abused a fisheries staff (who was also a maori) So there may be the expectation that maoris have a legitmate right to break the quotas.

The trout thing is even more ridiculous - customary rights are about tradition not ownership (unless you are saying they actually own the rivers?) and the trout licences are for the benefit of all so there are actually fish left in a few years time. What good would a customary right be if there are no fish.



also well said, but Trout were introduced, therefore i don't feel that Maori should have any rights different from the rest of the population in regard to them.


As for overall, limits should be adhered to by all parties. It wasn't the white settler that killed of the Moa through overhunting.
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i fully understand where you're coming from, and agree that police should be involved more in the matter...

i'd just like to point out that exceeding the normal fishing quota does not amount to over fishing... especially when there are say 6-8 men out gathering for upwards of 200 people...

the point (as i see it anyhow) is that these customary rights should only be exercised as need be - for tangi, hui and community purposes, which means the resources are not consistently fished at that rate...

i think its pretty obvious that it is the greed of a minority that (as always) makes the laws seem abused... there will always be those who chose to disobey the rules in place, and yes i agree they should be punished...
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I though they needed a type of permit to exercise their customary right, basically from the local iwi/hapu.

I think this is a storm in a teacup. Sure some maori will cmplain and harrass officers, they are arseholes and should be dealt with just like any pakeha/asian/PI etc doing the same.

As for the trout issue, the tradition is fishing in an area rather than the type of fish so why should introduced be any different. I'm sure maori used to catch whatever fish they could, not only a few species and so the same applies now.
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So you are saying jah that maori should be able to catch a fish to extiniction ignoring fisheries management quotas? Even while government departments and local government spend money trying to replace these fish?

maybe if they used traditional fishing technics i might agree with you Smile but fly fishing is more a recreation than a means to feed the family maybe they should be able to place set nets in the rivers to catch trout?
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bob, you're starting to like a typical paranoid white middle class act voter...

checkity check yourself, before you
wreckity wreck yourself
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Thats not what I am saying at all bob. If maori prove they cannot manage the resource then they should lose the right and endangered species should be off limits to all. However where an iwi or hapu has a large gathering they should be able to collect above the normal limits. I would hope they would use that responsibly, if not then the whole system is put at jeopardy.
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How is that different to managing the fish stokes first then allocating fishing to maori and others afterwards?
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Random info: In Japan the legal size for a snapper seems to be about 12-15cm. And everyday at a fish auction I went to they sell round about 500 Tuna & Mackeral (like ones that would weigh about as much as an average guy). I cant understand how they arent doing some serious damage to wher ever they get their fish from
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They have plundered their own fisheries and are now raping the south pacific.
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Exactly and that's on top of their whaling for so called scientific purposes.
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Theres a few maori who think they should be able to whale under customary rights. I dont think your ever going to have effective fisheries management with two seperate groups responsible especially when one controled by maoris would be under such conflicting responsibilities. I cant see how your model would work. Theres no justification for maori fisheries rights to be more important than sustainable fisheries. Its illogical to enforce a right to the point where it destroys the fishery.

We must be missing each other because im not saying maori shouldnt be able to catch fish for thier special events, what im saying is this should be worked out after or inside sustainable fisheries plans. How is this paranoid? Rather than calling me names saying ill never understand it because im white how about you spell it out to me exactly why maori should be able to ignore fisheries laws aimed at sustaining the fisheries?

jah: Ive said why i think trout is exempt from customary rights and you've by passed the issue and said they can do whatever they like.
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Bob: I dont think they ever actually did fish around Japan itself. Off the top of my head most of its from China/Korea/Thailand

Stylin: Tell me about it. They actually do tests on the whales but then they ARE eaten. I've had a few students confirm this. Mind you, its no less a cultural thing than what we have going on in NZ with the Maori fishing
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bob : Maori excersises coustomary rights are not a danger to fish stocks. There have been a few well publised cases of abuses. People seem more interested in this than commerial abuses. This is simple cause the media is control by and caters to middle class white NZ.

and some moari have requested the use of beached whales for coustumary purposes... I don't see a problem with this.
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was customary Maori hunting a threat to the Moa?
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Laughing Great question red shoes. Obviously it was. In some instances I think that its fair and reasonable for Maori to have customary fishing rights for special occasions but this still needs to be governed by a set of rules which can be enforced.
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Neil: In the oceans maybe but on rivers and some areas (and even conservation areas like goat island) why shouldnt maori rights come after environmental quotas? You're saying there have been abuses (like the fishing boats swapping fish out at sea) so explain to me why you think it needs to be outside the normal fisheries management?

I think using whale bones isnt really a problem at all and i dont know why you brought it up? There was a group of maori (people saying they were representing maori) at the latest whaling council meeting saying they should be able to whale whales.. i would hate to see them hyjack the customary rights issue for thier own agenda. If that makes me a scared white person by your estimation then fine do you mean to tell me i cannot comment on anything?
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This is why Maori and Fisheries work together. THis is really a problem. Its more an imagined problem manufactered by the right to demonise maori.

ANd what is the problem with maori whaling as long as it is sustainable?
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So you think that maori fishing rights should come after sustainable fishing quotas but as a frightened white middle class herald reader i have no right to say so?

When we get to the point that the world has excess whales then we can have that argument, until that time i dont think our position trying to create a southern whale sanctuary will be helped by maori fishing them.
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Bob - I thought I had answered your question about the trout, what specifically were you referring to.

I agree that customary rights need to be taken into account in allocating commercial quotas.

As for moas, anyone who thinks maori were careful with how they used the environment must have been smoking too much of the introduced plants.
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fair calls on the whales....

Fisheries managment takes into account maori coustumary rights.

What excatly is your problem bob, cause i seem to be missing the point.
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justahalf said:
I agree that customary rights need to be taken into account in allocating commercial quotas..


this already happens
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bob, you seemed to have changed the point of your argument from your original post...

your original question was one aimed more at the individual, and having had several retorts showing the necessity for an excess of normal quotas you have turned it around to a 'sustainable resource' argument...

nobody here thinks that customary rights are more important than sustaining fish stocks for the future, and to imply that they do think that does, in fact, seem a little paranoid to me.

on the whaling note, i am a little concerned about the actions of the few once again... human greed is a powerful thing, regardless of race, and once the dollar signs are waving my concern is that there will again be a few bad individuals using the racial loophole for their own gain... i think the smaller issues need to ironed out before such a big issue as whaling is even thought about...


i think that what you need to realise bob is that you're really only reacting to the actions of a few... there is an obvious racial/legal loophole that some have chosen to use for less than honest purposes... most people (regardless of race) as i said earlier know the effect that they're having, and realise that fishing excessively and taking undersized food will result in some sort of negative consequence... but there will always be someone looking to abuse their priveldges or evade the law... the answer - as i see it - is heavier policing and enforcing of these laws, not a law change.
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quote:
i think that what you need to realise bob is that you're really only reacting to the actions of a few... there is an obvious racial/legal loophole that some have chosen to use for less than honest purposes... most people (regardless of race) as i said earlier know the effect that they're having, and realise that fishing excessively and taking undersized food will result in some sort of negative consequence... but there will always be someone looking to abuse their priveldges or evade the law... the answer - as i see it - is heavier policing and enforcing of these laws, not a law change.


I agree, I think for understandable reasons the law is a bit soft in this area and my main focus was that fisheries staff need more support but it a bit of a non issue. The only justifiable reason for breaking the laws would be customary rights (the rest of them are just arseholes) thats why this has been about customary rights (not specifically maori who break the laws) i was surprised about the trout thing. and i seemed to be missing neils points so i just kept repeating earlier arguments.

anyway all done i wasnt out to bash maori however it may have looked.
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maori coustomary rights are protected under the law... excersing these rights is not breaking the law. Claiming that collection is for coustumary proposes when it is not is breaking the law.

THe answer is more staff, more funding etc. THey already have powers equal to the police... (i.e. fisheries staff have powers to arrest / detain people).

the answer is not blaiming maori
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where have i blamed maori and for what?
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you didn't, but you've come pretty close
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no i said some bad (by smfs description) maori were hiding behind it to the detriment of all maori. The only time i talked about all maori was when talking about customary rights which apply to maori as a group.
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3544320&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

good to see the police getting involved - good timing

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Ministry of Fisheries officers fined 23 people for illegal hauls during a weekend blitz in West Auckland.

About 150 cars were checked on Huia Rd near Cornwallis Beach, and six people now face court appearances for either taking more fish than allowed or taking undersized fish.

Police were also breath-testing drivers on Huia Rd. They stopped about 1500 cars, catching one drink-driver.

Fisheries officer Sonia Hoyes said the extent of the law-breaking - and especially the number of people taking undersized paua - was shocking.

"I'm disappointed, as people are depleting the paua fisheries out here," Miss Hoyes said.

"People feel there's a reasonable chance they'll get away with it but while you may get away with it once or twice we'll get you in the end."

Most of the illegal hauls found at the weekend were undersized paua, angering officers who said constant harvesting of this sort meant they had not seen legal-sized paua taken in the area for about five years.

Miss Hoyes said the worst finding over the weekend was an Asian couple who had more than three times the legal limit of pipis and twice the legal limit of cockles. They received a $1500 fine.

In another case, officers found baby mussels and 12cm snapper. The legal size for snapper is 27cm.

The majority of people who had been caught were mostly co-operative, Miss Hoyes said.

But police had to calm down a man who objected to his car being searched. He ended up getting a $250 fine for taking two undersized fish.

This is the second year that police and fisheries have worked together to crack down on illegal fishing and shellfish-gathering.

* A surveillance operation in Wellington has netted four poachers with 800 undersize paua destined for overseas black markets.

Twelve Fisheries Ministry officers stopped the men - all from the same extended family - at Moa Pt, near Wellington Airport.

The ministry said the haul, worth at least $20,000, would have been smuggled to Asia.

Catch limits

* Shellfish (daily limit per person in Auckland/Coromandel): 10 paua (ordinary and yellow foot), 20 scallop, 25 green-lipped mussels, 50 cockles, kina, pipi, tuatua and dredged oysters, 100 rock and pacific oysters.

* Nine snapper per person, minimum 27cm long.