Power Increases

So supposedly this ETS scheme is justification for the power companies to increase my prices by 20%?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10655260

I was wondering why my electricity bill this month was WAY higher than normal - supposedly we used an extra 100KW even though we live in a well insulated apartment and never use heaters and the KW/hr rate has increased from 16c to 20c (!) < Does anyone know what is the standard market rate?

OH REALLY JOHN, YOU DON'T FUCKING SAY?

privatise the profit, socialise the costs

john key and phil goff are unimpressed too. key says he believes the power companies will use the ets as an excuse to hike prices again, as does goff;



we are all ready paying astronomical amounts for power, imo something needs to be done to pull the companies into line. something more than politicians voicing their concern anyway.

We need a Soviet style clamp down, god they can't cut tccms companies off at the knees for insane mobile charges, how they gonna give elec cos the cumuppance?

nationalisation and the great leap backwards.... make essential services serve the NZ public not rort them

Ouch...with you power prices as they are they, that'll fucking hurt!

Prices going up in Aussie, too...but even a 20% would be fuck all...our bill (large 2 bedroom apartment with dual cycle air con (sorry, HEAT PUMP as you know them lol)) is around $180 PER QUARTER...little more for the winter quarter, but still, stupid cheap...I remember bills that high PER MONTH back home.

you have seen how little my pad is, insanity. power was $160 last month. usually only $80 - $100 per month in summer.. but i live on my own in a brand new, fully insulated place. stupid high prices! i feel for the families, mates of mine had a $350 bill last month, them and 2 kids. insane.

The power companies pay big dividends to the government. See that tax cut you got? you just paid it back plus a big whack extra.

That is why the government will moan about it but sit on their hands and do nothing.

No such thing as a free lunch kiddies, although all you "gimme a tax cut" crew will probably persist in dreaming that.

yep, of course labour was calling for the dividends to be cut today. somehow i cant see that happening. and then the gst hike later this year is going to up it even more..

just as well i now get an extra $2 a week! national really saved my bacon with that treat!

Only pay $50-$60 a month... so not to worried

What are they putting GST up to, 15%?
So your income is taxed at 35%+ then you pay 15% GST on everything...you keep 50% of your own money while geting ripped off for electricity, fuel, food and telecommunications?

Fuck...sign me up to move back sometime soon!

I was saying this a couple of years ago? And half of biggie were like: oh... don't be a cynic.

The scheme in its current form is nothing but a vehicle for companies - especially utilities - to grab another couple of percent revenue without actually doing anything worthy of it, let alone anything which will have any effect on the environment.

where be gdub with his rational explanations on ETS.... cause the underlying theory of why we need an ETS is very sound and includes science... the way we've protected the worst emitters by pushing the burdon onto the consumer is I believe seriosuly flawed... but key says it'll save jobs so what do I know

MATHS IS HARD

Edit: Sorry, I should make that clearer.

YOU'RE A MORON AND THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS. YOU DO NOT ADD THE 35% TO THE 15%.

so, how does exactly does this save jobs? by making us pay exorbitant amounts for what is a basic required service, we are helping who exactly..? can anyone help me on this? i must admit to feeling somewhat disillusioned by our country of late..

if the emitters were charged then they might reduce costs by laying staff off is I guess the logic at work in our prime ministers mind... course the reverse is if no one can afford power then they're all out of a job... which realisitically speaking isn't forseeable

or you really need gdub (he got the good lines for this) for I like you heylady don't like the way everything seems to be stacked against those of us who won't be getting (any or decent) pay rises or bugger all of a tax break to help ease the extra costs being heaped upon us

I'm...I'm..I'm...breathless

stop being a cheap cunt and turn your respirator on then

I'm changing from Contact to www.powershop.co.nz

Contact are bigger rip off merchants than Mercury. Was thinking a few months ago I should make some stink bombs so I could make good on fighting words like "I feel like bombing them" yet not actually hurt anyone.
..Or go to jail cos we have a bunch of post 9/11 paranoid thought Police.

Umm?

I hate people like you that want democracy and capitalism then say we should force companies in a free market to lower their prices

Sorry, but I'm a communist through and through and we live in a capitalist country - they can charge what the fuck they want. you choose to use their product. and dont tell me electricity is essential, for 99% of human existence we didnt have it

Insanity being selfish again
fuck off you arrogant kulak

We didn't live in concret jungles 99% of human existance either. Landscape changed.

Why is there no shades of grey with you, like ever? Perhaps if we come up with a system that is Capitalist with socalist tendencies, define the rules clearly then give it a name so it's black and white and teach it in Political Science papers at Uni perhaps that will satisfy?

Yep that's me the capitalist soviet who prefer leaking gas pipes but electricity is good for cooking jews over a fire

Oh fucking shit, dickface...I've was over simplyfing for effect...so simple even you couldn't grasp it.

Congrats

Vadinho missing the point/joke and being a whinging sad fuck prick again

No. Not at all. Nice attempt at a back-pedal, but no. No one believes you for a second.

Whatever, fatty-boomsticks douchebag

No. Just no.

oh, simplifying for effect!

next time I get something wrong, i'm just gonna claim I was simplifying for effect

"1 + 1 = 4"
"no, it's 2"
"I was simplifying for effect dickface"

lol...exactly...works sweet, au

Lets work with a nice even number of $1000 paid, inside the 35% tax bracket, in hand you get $650 in hand
Should you spend all $650 of that on GST applicable things, you pay $97.50 in GST
$350 income tax, $97.50 GST = $447.50 paid in various taxes...or 44.75%...not that far different from 50%, when "simplified for effect", is it, tosspots?

That's at 15% GST, not 12.5%...just assuming that's what they'd up it to since no one answered my question before

Again, your maths is wrong.

$1000
-35% = $650

That means you have $650 to spend TOTAL, not plus GST.

$650 inc 15% GST = $565.22 plus GST, meaning you've paid $84.78 + $350 which is 43.47% tax.

IF you spent all of that disposable income, which is a big assumption. Also the reason we call GST a consumption tax. You spend more, you pay more tax, WOW. Groundbreaking stuff here,

1.28% different...wow...groundbreakingly different stuff right there, and deffinattely not possibly in the realm of a rounding up to 50% to simplify and make a (joking) point...but hey, crack the shits about such a pendantic thing again, it's hilarious.

And hey, iniaccurate maths or not, it all still adds up to YOU GUYS GET RIPPED THE FUCK OFF!

I wonder if you can get up to 50% tax when you consider taxes the company had to pay to make a good or service and their suppliers had to pay etc...

Can someone answer this:
Raising GST hits the poor harder because they spend more on goods and services... how does this work?

Geez, some pressure from the daktari but it goes something like this:
- Govt signed Kyoto so taxpayers have to pay if our emissions go over x
- ETS is designed to raise some of the money for that payment from the people actually making it necessary (i.e. emitters)
- By doing so it encourages emissions to drop (as they'd rather not pay so are incentivised to switch to lower emissions investments)
- OR it goes straight onto the price (as power companies are claiming) which also encourages emissions to drop (as people use less).

But National's ETS basically puts none of the cost back on emitters and leaves it all on the taxpayer - remember kids if we didn't have any ETS we'd all just have to pay the big Kyoto bill directly as taxpayers. National's is unfortunately awfully close to no ETS so power prices ain't nothing compared to the tax hikes we'll face when the bill comes due.


Certainly agree that power companies are taking the piss here too - so I voted with my wallet and switched to Powershop. I'm intrigued to watch if the "renewable" energy packs they offer are affected (unfortunately I think they will which shows up what those packs really are)

That's not how it works. (Massively simplified)

Company A makes a widget, and sells it to the wholesaler Company B for $10 plus GST = $11.50
Company B buys the widget and sells it to retailer Company C for $11.50 plus GST = $13.22
Company C sells the widget to the Customer for $13.22 plus GST = $15.21

Only end customers pay GST, companies don't.

Now, the total amount of GST on the item as sold to the end user is $1.99. But, you can see that GST has been charged 3 times. $1.50 + $1.72 + $1.99 = $5.21! . Government made out like bandits right? No. Company C claims back the $1.72 it paid and forwards the Government the remaining $0.27 it charged , and Company B claims back the $1.50 they paid and forwards the Government the remaining $0.22 they charged, and Company A forwards the government the whole $1.50 they charged. The Government gets it's $1.99 from the full sale price in 3 different chunks. In reality, Company A would also be paying GST on whatever they bought to make the widget, but in this example they are a primary producer making something from nothing.

In practice, it's a whole lot simpler than it sounds, and I haven't accounted for margin in any of that.



They don't spend *more*, they spend more as a percentage of their income on fixed outgoings. 2 earners, one earns $500/wk in the hand, the other earns $1000/wk. Assuming they both have the same expenses:

$200 rent
$100 food
$50 fuel
=$350, of which $45.65 is GST at 15%

That means GST is 9.12% of the $500 earners pay, but only 4.65% of the $1000 earners. When GST goes up but wages dont, the lower earner is effected by a greater percentage. Now, the higher earner will pay more GST when they splurge on discretionary items that lower earner can't afford, like a new LCD TV and Playstation, but yeah.

Insanity is right about one thing, after living in Aussie for 18 months I've come to realise that utilities were the real killer back in NZ.

and then where? who gets to spend our mooliagas?

The money would get spent buying carbon credits I understand.

I reckon most people spend damm close to 100% of their income kris.
however the insanity simplification is blown out by the fact that most people spend most of their money on rent or mortgage and these dont attract gst.

spent where and who gets rich at our expense?

it's looking awfully like this

doesn't personal debt levels suggest we spend more like 120% of our income

high flyers, us lot

From outfits who have spare credits to sell. They make a profit.


I'm not saying it isn't fucked up, I'm just sayin'.

no pressure... you just do the do so well, thanking you

Yeah, although I included it in the example I gave to Smiley.

The difference is that with the higher wage earners, more of their spending is usually discretionary, so GST is working well as a consumption tax in that case.

Simple solution if you don't want those people getting rich NR

Just don't buy products that produce large amounts of carbon during production.

Ultimately that's what it's about... changing people's behaviour by making bad things more expensive

Such as Hybrid cars!

Re who bears the costs - if the cost was fully worn by businesses, the consumers of those products would still bear the full cost as the business passes on its costs. More than that, where those businesses are competing against overseas businesses (either internally or externally) they lose out and NZers lose jobs.

I thought I read that the expected actual increase in cost/price for power is somewhere around 3-5%

Broadly I support this and any scheme like this which is creating a market out of nothing will always have some teething issues. But lol at some of the dinosaurs the meida have dragged out to give man-on-the-street views.

I guess youre being a smart arse but its a pretty retarded standpoint.

couldn't one say that until business bear the full cost of their emissions there is no incentive for them to emit less ... cause the tax payer (not always their consumers) will carry the costs

Gee, whatever gave you that idea?
I just knew that they're actually incredibly inefficient to make because of the materials and the distances they have to travel to be assembled...diesel engines are better in that regard.

The market will fix it bob_d and consumers will just switch to a different product

That's only relevant if you buy the car and then never use it.

If the finance industry had GST than we wouldn't need any increase, infact we could probably lower it.

the market can't even fix itself...

Fuck hybrids because they aren't the answer. Neither are electric cars.


HYDROGEN FUEL CELL BITCHES

You mean exactly like what is happening here? Where the increased cost is being passed on to electricity consumers?

The competing thing is a somewhat valid point - that's why farmers are such massive polluters and are getting a free fucking ride. But all our trading partners seem to be playing chicken, who's going to blink first. But why are we one of the early adopters?

Are you saying the right is WRONG bob d???!?!?!

oh crap... I let the cat out of the bag.... I can never go home again can I?

what I actually meant is why do we need an ETS cause if their is demand for saving the planet it'll be catered for by private enterprise

Plus it has a positive effect on population growth... Everytime one of these things crashes a city block is levelled and thosands are killed.