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[quote]
I watched this last night on youtube. He was brilliant. he didn't retreat into platitudes or offer excuses - he used the "controversey" over the sermon of the Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. to tackle and discuss race relations in a pasionate, intelligent and nuanced way. I challenge anyone to watch this speech and say Obama isn't ready to be president.

Apparently its the most viewed video on youtube.

Highly recommend it.
[quote]
I would rather see Obama as president than Clinton.

It could represent a new era of world relations.

If he doesn't get assassinated.

Just be weary of those red states eh?
[quote]
Here is some alternative views toward Obama. Maybe African Americans aren't so sure about him after he sold out by Condemning Rev Wright.

quote:
I have absolutely no respect for Obama. It is obvious that he, internally, agrees with Wright, and it would be hard NOT to agree with Wright, that is unless you are willing to sell out your principles for political gain. Wright, who has shepherded Obama through many major life events was not out of line, not inaccurate, and not extreme. But Obama must give his pound of flesh and show that he is willing to sacrifice a black man, a man who helped build him, to the white political establishment. This is the definition of selling out, so that you can have something much greater than your own integrity.

quote:
On the other end, we've heard my former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend white and black alike.


And it gets even better:

quote:
But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply a religious leader's effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic[/i], and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.[/b]


(Emphasis mine)

He spits in the face of Islam and throws a bone to the true radicals, the Israeli lobby and those that support our puppet in the region. It's as if he is deliberately trying to sacrifice the TRUTH of the matter, that Israel is CENTRAL to the issues in the Middle East, and that US foreign policy is CENTRAL to the issues in the Middle East, in exchange for the support of the US foreign policy establishment and its pro-Israel wing.

But then he goes on to spout some essentialist nonsense:

quote:
Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety - the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.


And he speaks about things he does not know in depth, simply to assuage white liberals:

[quo]Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety - the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.


And it seems, at least to me, that he is blaming the victim. It is so obvious that he DESPERATELY wants white America to trust him. An all black school IS NOT INHERENTLY INFERIOR! Stop perpetuating myths that white people must be present for quality to be present! Stop propping up myths of white supremacy!!!!!

But it gets even BETTER!

quote:
A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families - a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods - parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement - all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.


That's just straight up propaganda. Blame welfare for the systematic failures of American society. Pull the welfare card out and blame poor people for not being empowered to effectively compete in capitalism. And the sexism inherent in this little diddy is mountainous! It's the fault of black women, implicitly, that all of these horrors exist. If the patriarch wasn't emasculated by white society, then he would have put the black house in order. Give me a break. This might as well be coming from the mouth of Ronald Reagan.

*IRONY ALARM INCOMING*

quote:
Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the men and women of Reverend Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician's own failings.


Yeah, you know, racism is totally something in the past. It doesn't go on right this minute. The people in the church were upset over the PAST, but not the here an now? This is revisionist history of the most perfect kind. The irony of the last line is tangible, touchable and sickening. How can he use this last line and not acknowledge that his whole strategy with black voters is to do the very same thing!?

quote:
Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.


Ok, blame affirmative action and not the conditions that forced it to come into existence. If white people want a world where they don't have to complain about affirmative action, then they need to fight white supremacy. But of course Obama mythologizes Affirmative action as the reality is that THE BIGGEST BENEFICIARIES OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ARE WHITE WOMEN!!! And what's sad is that this very part of the speech is the absolute TRIPE that is used by many people here. That they did it themselves, that their skin color meant nothing, that if they could overcome economic hardships then so should black and brown people. This is absurd. It is easily destroyed. It is exactly what white America WANTS to hear instead of what white America NEEDS to hear.

quote:
For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.


How can you honestly say that black Americans can write their own destinies in this country!? That is crap and you allude to it in this very speech! It's a paradox Barak and you really have to be blind to not see it.

Then he ends in the cumbaya populism that will probably carry him into the White House. Nice sacrifice to the alter of white guilt.[/quote]
[quote]
yep, i guess there are always going to be people that say it's better to be more radical and not get elected than it is to try and win votes. Those people generally achieve nothing.
[quote]
neil_armstrong said:
yep, i guess there are always going to be people that say it's better to be more radical and not get elected than it is to try and win votes. Those people generally achieve nothing.

But what have populist liberals have ever achieved? In America's case, for the African American population? When is the issue of racism ever gonna be over when the white population cannot get over their white guilt or own up to facts?
[quote]
or the African American his recrimination?
[quote]
He didnt exactly sell out or condem the man - quite the opposite.

He did however disagree with his bullshit (depending on the context).

Theres been some very interesting commentary on this - far more intelligent than i would have expected. I suspect Obama has been very well preped for this issue and its good to see he has tackled it with a back bone. Still not sure hes the best person to run against the republicans but in my view either clinton or obama will do better than the current administration.
[quote]
There have been too many things done by the administration under Republicans and Democrats to not to be skeptical. Why do you think Rev Wright's opnions are out of line?
[quote]
fish_boy said:
I watched this last night on youtube. He was brilliant.... he didn't retreat into platitudes or offer excuses....

...I challenge anyone to watch this speech and say Obama isn't ready to be president...


I just watched it. He handled that very well indeed.

R
[quote]
Unless this is a ploy he is using to get into the white house and then get more radical concerning the good of the African American community. He will just simply be a turn coat traitor who will reinforce the institutional racism that's so ripe in America.
[quote]
so when it comes to the choice between the ballot or the bullet you prefer the bullet, right? Because they're not going to elect anybody more radical. Not now anyways. And you can sit there are cry about him being a traitor, or you can recognise him for what he *actually* is --- a massive change in the context of American politics.
[quote]
I thought he handled a very delicate situation with aplomb.
[quote]
neil_armstrong said:
..or you can recognise him for what he *actually* is --- a massive change in the context of American politics.


Exactly. People can talk all they want about experience etc bla bla... but it really comes down to this: (assuming it's important to you)

McCain = Four more years of the same crap guaranteed! Nothing will change.

Obama = A chance something will change, and certainly for the better (imo).

R
[quote]
do you understand the the american political system is very different to the NZ political system.

The president, unlike our prime minister, is the head of state, not merely the head of government. Therefore, the president should be somebody that represents all people and is a symbol of national unity. I think that Obama showed in this speech that he is exactly that.
[quote]
neil_armstrong said:
do you understand the the american political system is very different to the NZ political system.


Were you asking in general or of me?

I understand completely.. Esp interesting because of veto powers and mid-term majority change possibilities.

R
[quote]
RobW said:
neil_armstrong said:
do you understand the the american political system is very different to the NZ political system.


Were you asking in general or of me?

I understand completely.. Esp interesting because of veto powers and mid-term majority change possibilities.

R


nah, that was directed at dark-light
[quote]
People said the same thing when they voted in Reagon and Nixon.... people never learn.

Obama is going to invade Iran.

Obama is going to sort of Venezula

Obama is going to continue supporting Israel

Obama is going to keep the status quo in term of the plight of his fellow African Americans.
[quote]
dark_light said:
People said the same thing when they voted in Reagon and Nixon.... people never learn.

Obama is going to invade Iran.

Obama is going to sort of Venezula

Obama is going to continue supporting Israel

Obama is going to keep the status quo in term of the plight of his fellow African Americans.


Do you believe African Americans have been more persecuted over the course of human history than women?
[quote]
vadinho said:
dark_light said:
People said the same thing when they voted in Reagon and Nixon.... people never learn.

Obama is going to invade Iran.

Obama is going to sort of Venezula

Obama is going to continue supporting Israel

Obama is going to keep the status quo in term of the plight of his fellow African Americans.


Do you believe African Americans have been more persecuted over the course of human history than women?

Do you think African American women have got it worse than an European women in the course of modern history?

Obama's White Men: Do They Hear Something Blacks Don't?


The corporate media and most Blacks with access to a mass public never seem to seriously examine the meaning of the most dramatic, history-shaking statistic in Barack Obama's march to the White House: he's picking up strong majorities of white men. That's unheard of in the annals of electoral activity in the United States. White men have always been the most reactionary, racially-bonded voting group, the deepest well of anti-Black hostility in the country. So, what makes them flock to Obama's banner? The answer is simple: Obama has based his entire strategy on sending messages to white males, assuring them he will take race and sex privilege off the table of American discourse. They got the message, and vote accordingly. The other side of this color blind coin is Black Americans, who don't seem to hear the conversation that's going on all around them.

Tuesday's Democratic primaries saw Barack Obama racking up over 60 percent of the white male vote in Wisconsin, riding an unprecedented historical demographic anomaly that will likely send him to the White House - barring a third consecutive general election theft by the Republicans. It appears Hillary Clinton's goose is cooked.

Once whites demonstrated their willingness to vote for a "certain type" of Black man, in Iowa back in January, it was a foregone conclusion that African Americans would line up in overwhelming numbers behind the Illinois Senator. Before then, all that had held back the tides of Black mass commitment to Obama's candidacy were lingering doubts that whites would support any "type" of Black person's elevation to the nation's highest office. When that dam broke, the African American celebration began. After 400 years in slave hell and Jim Crow purgatory, we've finally got a chance! Or so the crowd believes.

Obama wasn't taking any chances. His strategy from the very beginning has been to flip the historical script by appealing directly to the most backward demographic in electoral politics: white males. This "white male strategy" - smelling eerily of a previous Republican "southern strategy" - required constant assurances to white men that Obama's run would signal the end of race as a point of political contention in the United States. No longer would whites, especially males, be compelled to answer for their privileged status. A 40-plus year annoyance was nearly over, since Blacks had "already come 90 percent of the way" to equality. Obama told them so.

Reagan-loving whites - especially the white men who have always led the "backlash" against real and perceived African American gains - found themselves wooed by a Black man who understood their sense of revulsion at "the excesses of the Sixties and Seventies." Wow! That's the kind of change we've been waiting for, exclaimed increasing numbers of white males. A new day beckoned, free at last of psychological harassment from the likes of Reverends Jesse and Al.

"No longer would whites, especially males, be compelled to answer for their privileged status."

Obama is a world-class wooer. His white male wooing is made much easier by the fact that those who consider themselves his "sisters" and "brothers" demand nothing whatsoever from him. Just come home when you get ready, brother. Obama is free to concentrate his attentions on the hard-to-get demographics, especially white men with their peculiar notions of "change." No need for Obama to promise the hood a damn thing, except that he'll cut a dashing figure in the Oval Office and make the homefolks proud that he's there, symbolically representing them.

Republicans and GOP-leaning "independents" (meaning, deep-dyed whites) are crossing over in herds to vote for Obama. They've gotten the message: happy days are here again, when the darkies smiled and were careful not to hurt our feelings by telling the truth. That's the kind of "change" we've always "hoped" for, by golly!

The white liberal/left, ineffectual and geographically scattered, are drawn irresistibly to the Black man who regales them with sweet nothings - literally, nothing in the way of the concrete policies for peace and social justice they claim to champion. His presence in their midst is enough. Besides, Obama is someone who is "capable of forging a progressive majority," they say.

That's a strange concept, since Obama doesn't act like a progressive, or claim to be one. But he has no problem with folks gathering around him. He's a real party guy.

"The ‘sanctity of contracts' will not be violated to save homeowners from foreclosure, no matter how deep the credit crisis becomes."

The no-nonsense white men that rule society and cling to ownership of the world were harder nuts to crack; you've got to sign a prenuptial to get skin-tight with them. No problem. Before Obama even began to strut on the national runway, he'd won the approval of the Wall Street and military/industrial (and nuclear power) branches of the Money Family. Run-of-the-mill citizens will be barred from state court relief, so as not to jam up big corporations with their silly lawsuits. Energy companies can count on their usual subsidies. The "sanctity of contracts" will not be violated to save homeowners from foreclosure, no matter how deep the credit crisis becomes. The voracious military will be fed an additional 92,000 soldiers and Marines, regardless of what happens in Iraq, to be available for more wars. Most importantly - and this is the really smooth part of Obama's game - the ever-increasing military budget will make moot all of Barack's and Hillary's (near identical) promises about health care, affordable housing, the whole public agenda that has been dangled in front of those fans and groupies in the cheap seats.

Once he gets in office, many of the swooners will find out that he's already married to the Power Mob.

But that's OK. Obama knows his most enthusiastic supporters - the ones that claim him as their own as a matter of blood - will stick by him without complaint. Hell, their "leaders" show every sign of allowing him to wine and dine and make promises to everybody else BUT them, at least until he is comfortably in office - maybe for the entirety of his first term. For the time being, though, Black folks aren't even hearing what he's saying to the white men or anybody else - they're just enjoying the music: "It's been a long, a long time coming, but I know, a change gonna come."

Oh no it ain't.

http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=537&Itemid=1
[quote]
The simple truth is that most americans (nor perhaps much of the world) dont want immediate radical change in America. Obama hasnt positioned himself as the person to bring down the system and nor would he get voted in if there was even a hint of it.

What he (and hillary) does represent is some recognition of the change that is happening slowly over the last 20 years. It will take generations but it can be sped up a bit with a president who can represent other than the rich white country club guy.

It seems to me dn that youre building him up to something he isnt, which makes your criticism somewhat pointless.

Maybe you are mistaking people in this forum for other people with no clue?
[quote]
darklight: your attitude seems typical of many of the left. Often the left's most vocal critics come from the left. That home Socialist Workers NZ (or whatever the fuck they calls themselves now) ended up sporting the Albanians after then USSR/CHINA CHINA/ALBANIA split.

Really, the left can learn from the right when it comes to unity.
[quote]
It was a brilliant speech, well delivered and crucial in this troubled time. It will go down in history, potentially being well sited by future generations, even if he doesn’t gain the presidency.

Personally Dark Light, I don't like your politics or appreciate your position at all, you are divisive and critical to the point of overlooking the potential benefit, or platform that is being created via this speech, where other discrepancies (such as issues you espouse) can be further addressed and acknowledged by a wider audience.

Your argument seems to be predominantly focusing on Obama's attempt to acquiesce the white Liberal conscience and via doing so, reducing African Americans plights?!?

Yet it seems he has done neither.

You seem so caught up in his potential manipulation strategy to win votes, you invoke a convenient amnesia to the difficulty of trying to attain balance in such a divisive topic for any potential candidate (past, present or future) or acknowledge his conscientious ability of identifying and exposing all positions (white/black or other) and bringing them into a common zone of understanding where potential negotiation can further develop.

Your position is certainly not strong enough to attract my support.
[quote]
dark_light said:
Obama is going to invade Iran.


This doesn’t seem likely.

Besides being against Iraq and only in support of dismantling smaller scale terrorist infrastructure when it presents itself (i.e. Pakistan), America’s present economic and tactical circumstances do not place it in a good position to conduct another large scale ground assault on another country, especially one the size of Iran. It is not to say that an attack couldn’t be orchestrated with long range missile and air strikes on various infrastructures though, just that invading Iran as you imply, does not seem plausible.

dark_light said:
Obama is going to sort of Venezula


Any evidence to support this? What makes you so certain as to warrant utilizing semantically absolute language such as “is” statements?

dark_light said:
Obama is going to continue supporting Israel


Of course, though I think he is more likely to support both the Israelis and the Palestinians, attempting to balance the extremes and pressure the ongoing road map to two coexisting states.

dark_light said:
Obama is going to keep the status quo in term of the plight of his fellow African Americans.


Given the enormous mess America has to clean up at the moment, I don’t expect leaps and bounds into addressing strictly African American grievances, but he will plot a careful course towards it via various institutional changes that will grant an environment where it can occur.

A position such as the Presidency requires addressing designated priorities in an order of precedence which means other areas are likely to be focused on first; this doesn’t mean he has no intention of resolving such issues.

I say give him a chance.
[quote]
Can the USA be changed by one man - quite probably not

but Obama has delivered a very important speech and continues to offer hope where the others simply offer status quo

as for Iran and other hot spots the next President may just inherit the actions of this regime... or in other words the world is not safe from Bushco yet
[quote]
bob daktari said:
but Obama has delivered a very important speech and continues to offer hope where the others simply offer status quo


True. The basic difference between the candidates is Obama will at least aim to change things. McCain in particular will just be more of the same. I think Obama will do wonders for international relations - rebuilding the ties with nations who Bush/Republicans have spent year after year doing their best to alienate.

Also... has anyone read any of the Clinton Presidential archives news? They've been made public now - after a legal wrangle by Hillary to keep them private (even though would normally be public). It turns out in all those years Bill was president she spent the first two being part of some meetings etc.. . but after he lost popularity in his first mid-term elections from then on she was basically doing school openings, hospital visits, state dinners with other first wives... etc. I.e., little of any value at all which backs up her claims to be highly experienced in foreign relations or other areas she's trying to paste Obama on. Pwnd honey.

R
[quote]
FYI.. The schedule of the week Bill Clinton was outed publicly for his Monica Lewinsky dealings... show that Hillary was using her diplomatic might to:

- "had her choosing flowers for a black-tie dinner"
- "congratulating 'Guns Aren't Cool' award winners"
- "reading to kids"
- "attended a National Symphony Orchestra pops concert with singer Sarah Brightman at the Kennedy Center."
-
That week she also denounced a "vast right-wing conspiracy" in a TV interview when asked about the Lewinsky happenings.

That week an aid also found her legal billings from her former company, long sought-after by investigators, hidden at the white house which pertained to some real estate transactions that were fraudulent. (..implying she helped keep them out of the limelight - she denied knowing she was in possession of them :rollSmile

---------------------

It was on Jan. 21, 1998, when her husband woke her up, sat on the edge of the bed and said, "There's something in today's papers you should know about." He told her of the reports of his relationship with the former intern, and she said she believed his denials. Laughing

R
[quote]
well.... all I've left to say is

"thats like, your opinion mann!!!!"
[quote]
theres plenty of evidence to show the clintons as lying sacks of shit

this doesn't mean Hilary wouldn't be a competant president (what politican doesn't lie as part of their day to day routine, a unemployed one I guess) - I assume she'd be the first that is "sleeping" with a ex president whilst in power
[quote]
rupert murdoch thinks hillary is cool...

that sums it up for me basically.
[quote]
If i am a yank, i would vote for Ralph Nader.
[quote]
Again, what is so fantastic about Obama's speech on race? What did he say that MLK didn't say, or JFK?

He refused to disown violent racist ranting.

If a presidential hopeful was a member of a neo-nazi group, he wouldn't get far, would he?
[quote]
vadinho said:
Again, what is so fantastic about Obama's speech on race? What did he say that MLK didn't say, or JFK?


I guess it is not so much what is being said but how it's being said, I herd one respected commentator who was around for both elections say that he's a better speaker than JFK. That's a huge thing to say.

I think if you try hard enough you can twist and turn his words into anything you like.

I think he's a straight shooter and it was a brilliant speech, I hope he wins.

PS. Hillary Clinton looks like chipmunk, do you want a chipmunk running the United States of Amercia? We already had a monkey in the oval office, may as well start a fuking zoo.
[quote]
Obama talked about race Vads - this is fantastic in America... he gave both black and white communties hope whilst also showing he wouldn't do much more than talk, this pleases the ruling elites

he defended his pastor without throwing him to the wolves...and running the risk of alienating the black american community, he did this skillfully

he gave hope, he made people believe... he came across as being upfront, honest and a man one could trust

For a speech that was fill of contradictions he done good in other words

if we think we have fuck all decent choice in this country regarding our leaders and party picks thank your gods we ain't in the USA
[quote]
bob daktari said:
Obama talked about race Vads - this is fantastic in America... he gave both black and white communties hope whilst also showing he wouldn't do much more than talk, this pleases the ruling elites

he defended his pastor without throwing him to the wolves...and running the risk of alienating the black american community, he did this skillfully

he gave hope, he made people believe... he came across as being upfront, honest and a man one could trust

For a speech that was fill of contradictions he done good in other words

if we think we have fuck all decent choice in this country regarding our leaders and party picks thank your gods we ain't in the USA


Except he SHOULD have thrown his pastor to the wolves.
My pastor talks about the "evils of the black race" and I tell him to fuck off.

Talking about race, huh? He's a hypocrite. He talked about the differences betwene black and white, but when people said people voted for him because he was black, he went after them like a rabid pit bul.. You can't have it both ways - you can't say race doesn't matter (which is what he said then) and now say race is important.

Obama embodies a very, very deep contradiction. Black people say they shouldn't be treated differently, yet then say they are different; separate but equal might be their motto - the same as was the motto for apartheid. Yet if they are separate, how can they possibly be equal? It defies belief that two things can be differnet and yet somehow their constituent parts somehow add together into an "equal package." Either you belief in equality, and thus non-separation, or you believe in difference, and thus inferiority/superiority.

McCain doesn't mention race, because McCain realises the issue isn't race, it's CULTURE. And culture is like clothing; you can put it on or off if you really want to. As John Legend put it, "I can change."

Obama has taken the easy route - some smooth talking jive about "black and white" and melting pots. It's bullshit. And, even more importantly, it's a fucking irrelevance. Race is problem # 239383838 on America's list.

What's #1?
Well, it could be the massive Eastern conspiracy that has an abiding hatred for Western liberalism - a stew of hatred and evil that is the spiritual descendant of Xerxes hordes as they streamed across the Hellespont, intent on destroying the flames of civilisation that were smouldering in Greece at the time.

Obama is the sort of person who would counsel coming to an agreement with the Persians - after all, why bother fighting?
McCain, on the other hand, = Leonidas
[quote]
It was a pretty good speech though.
[quote]
lol vadz

mccain btw hides the fact that he's episcopalian (with its attendant charges of LIBERALISM - women priests homo bishops etc OMG) and professes to be baptist like his partner with whom he has been worshipping at tabernacle these past few years

a hilarious PBS meet the press type show re the saints hilary obama and john and their spiritual guides on tri dangle last night
[quote]
Night Rider said:
mccain btw hides the fact that he's episcopalian (with its attendant charges of LIBERALISM - women priests homo bishops etc OMG)


More importantly, for all the glorious things Vads lumps on McCain, if elected it will be four more years of the same Republican crap - antagonistic foreign policy, neglect at home and general keeping things exactly the same as they are now. I.e. terrible.

He might point out a couple of insider deals for tankers or get the support of the Vets for his heroic sitting in a bamboo prison cell for four years but the reality is he will just continue Bush's way. As nice as he is, as experienced as he is and no matter how much integrity he has - McCain as president would be bad news for the America and the rest of the world who are sick of the crap that has gone on in the last eight years.

R
[quote]
not defending ol rabid McCain - but whilst he wouldn't be that great for us non Americans he might be a OK president for them voting... you know nothing lights up the americans sense of pride more than killing darkies, arabs and other non americans

clinton and obama no matter what they spout possibly could not contain the beast that is the US military industrial complex and the US's desire for blood - as the democrats have shown
[quote]
he ain't connecting with the working class white man dark_light
[quote]
RobW said:
Night Rider said:
mccain btw hides the fact that he's episcopalian (with its attendant charges of LIBERALISM - women priests homo bishops etc OMG)


More importantly, for all the glorious things Vads lumps on McCain, if elected it will be four more years of the same Republican crap - antagonistic foreign policy, neglect at home and general keeping things exactly the same as they are now. I.e. terrible.

He might point out a couple of insider deals for tankers or get the support of the Vets for his heroic sitting in a bamboo prison cell for four years but the reality is he will just continue Bush's way. As nice as he is, as experienced as he is and no matter how much integrity he has - McCain as president would be bad news for the America and the rest of the world who are sick of the crap that has gone on in the last eight years.

R


Where is your evidence?

What evidence we have points out McCain is NOT part of the "establishment", fights against interest groups buying elections, fights against Karl Rove and his cabal of Republican witches, is a conscientious lawmaker.

McCain has done more for America as a legislator than Obama has done. Surely we can measure like for like?

McCain: finance reform
Obama: looks good
[quote]
RobW said:
I.e. terrible.


What actually is so bad?
Biggest economy in the world.
Strongest military in the world.
VERY high per capita incomes.

People seem to think America is riven by civil war or something. Stop crying about what is a fantastic situation.
[quote]
vadinho said:
bob daktari said:
Obama talked about race Vads - this is fantastic in America... he gave both black and white communties hope whilst also showing he wouldn't do much more than talk, this pleases the ruling elites

he defended his pastor without throwing him to the wolves...and running the risk of alienating the black american community, he did this skillfully

he gave hope, he made people believe... he came across as being upfront, honest and a man one could trust

For a speech that was fill of contradictions he done good in other words

if we think we have fuck all decent choice in this country regarding our leaders and party picks thank your gods we ain't in the USA


Except he SHOULD have thrown his pastor to the wolves.
My pastor talks about the "evils of the black race" and I tell him to fuck off.

Talking about race, huh? He's a hypocrite. He talked about the differences betwene black and white, but when people said people voted for him because he was black, he went after them like a rabid pit bul.. You can't have it both ways - you can't say race doesn't matter (which is what he said then) and now say race is important.

Obama embodies a very, very deep contradiction. Black people say they shouldn't be treated differently, yet then say they are different; separate but equal might be their motto - the same as was the motto for apartheid. Yet if they are separate, how can they possibly be equal? It defies belief that two things can be differnet and yet somehow their constituent parts somehow add together into an "equal package." Either you belief in equality, and thus non-separation, or you believe in difference, and thus inferiority/superiority.

McCain doesn't mention race, because McCain realises the issue isn't race, it's CULTURE. And culture is like clothing; you can put it on or off if you really want to. As John Legend put it, "I can change."

Obama has taken the easy route - some smooth talking jive about "black and white" and melting pots. It's bullshit. And, even more importantly, it's a fucking irrelevance. Race is problem # 239383838 on America's list.

What's #1?
Well, it could be the massive Eastern conspiracy that has an abiding hatred for Western liberalism - a stew of hatred and evil that is the spiritual descendant of Xerxes hordes as they streamed across the Hellespont, intent on destroying the flames of civilisation that were smouldering in Greece at the time.

Obama is the sort of person who would counsel coming to an agreement with the Persians - after all, why bother fighting?
McCain, on the other hand, = Leonidas

You are a white dude who promotes imperialism. I think the Pastor spot on especially referring to people like you. Oh and praising America are we? It's like they did it by themselves. How many countries have to suffer to sustain America?

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
^CIA timeline
[quote]
vadinho said:
What actually is so bad?
Biggest economy in the world.
Strongest military in the world.
VERY high per capita incomes.


I'm just going to assume you're arguing the anti just out of habit. Rolling Eyes

R
[quote]
McCain has this moderate image but his voting record makes him the 3rd most right-wing member of the entire Senate and is anti-condom, pro-"life" and supports "intelligent design" being taught in schools.
I dunno about him. Get this feeling that he's still a deeply religious-right kinda guy who has made some nice policy around stoppping torture and being slightly nicer to immigrants...
[quote]
and that speech was incredibly refreshing for a politician.

as John Stewart put it: "and so, at 11am on March the 18th, a senior political figure talked about race to the American public like we were adults".
[quote]
RobW said:
vadinho said:
What actually is so bad?
Biggest economy in the world.
Strongest military in the world.
VERY high per capita incomes.


I'm just going to assume you're arguing the anti just out of habit. Rolling Eyes

R


And I'm going to assume you don't know SHIT

BAD is your country facing starvation, economic collapse, civil war etc. Your complete lack of historical context means you are crying because your nail polish is chipped.
[quote]
garethw said:
and that speech was incredibly refreshing for a politician.

as John Stewart put it: "and so, at 11am on March the 18th, a senior political figure talked about race to the American public like we were adults".


Yeah, because those race riots sweeping America are obviously so important.
[quote]
vadinho said:
And I'm going to assume you don't know SHIT

BAD is your country facing starvation, economic collapse, civil war etc.


It's all relative to the times Vads. This isn't 1890, it's 2008.

Bad is when healthcare standards have dropped dramatically yet health insurance has doubled in price in 15 years. It's bad when no-one wants to make a call either way on the illegal immigrant issue. It's bad when major employers are going arse up (GM etc) or treating staff like scum (Walmart). It's bad when people are scared that the crime rate in their nice little towns has skyrocketed in their lifetimes... Or that their friends/kids are in what is essentially Vietnam 2 - lessons which were long ago sworn never to be repeated. So, yeah, the US is worse than it has been for well over a decade in many ways.

For sure, compared to how many other countries have it, they're doing well in many ways - but few individuals judge their lot against how Sudan or Sri Lanka are doing. They judge it by how they were doing one, two or five years ago - and very few American's are better off in that respect.

Not everything revolves around war, military might, starvation/disease and war heros.

R
[quote]
RobW said:

Bad is when healthcare standards have dropped dramatically yet health insurance has doubled in price in 15 years. It's bad when no-one wants to make a call either way on the illegal immigrant issue. It's bad when major employers are going arse up (GM etc) or treating staff like scum (Walmart). It's bad when people are scared that the crime rate in their nice little towns has skyrocketed in their lifetimes... Or that their friends/kids are in what is essentially Vietnam 2 - lessons which were long ago sworn never to be repeated. So, yeah, the US is worse than it has been for well over a decade in many ways.

For sure, compared to how many other countries have it, they're doing well in many ways - but few individuals judge their lot against how Sudan or Sri Lanka are doing. They judge it by how they were doing one, two or five years ago - and very few American's are better off in that respect.


Except:
1. Life expectancy and all other major measures of health are completely unchanged since Bush entered power. So evidence of health problems is ... where exactly?
2. Illegal immigration is a problem, sure, but it's no worse now than it has been for 10, 15 years. I was reading a National Geographic from about 1996 on it the other day. So why is it suddenly a huge issue now? Why not back in 2000 or 2004? Nothing seemed so bad then?
3. Crime rates in America have NOT risen and indeed in major metropolitian areas - NY, LA, and Washington, they have IMPROVED.

I will give you Iraq. From a certain perspective, Iraq means the US is worse off today than it was in say 2000 or 2002. But that is the only SERIOUS problem facing America that is the responsibility of a President.

If you want to say Bush has caused economic problems, then you also need to say Clinton caused economic growth... and if so then surely getting Hillary in is the best move?

THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES.
[quote]
vadinho said:
...you also need to say Clinton caused economic growth... and if so then surely getting Hillary in is the best move?


What, Hillary is a clone of Bill? She can achieve what he has? I doubt it.. he came in with a clean slate - she would come in with tons of baggage. For every person who loves the idea of her husband being there behind the scenes there is another who will steer well clear.

R
[quote]
vadinho said:
RobW said:
vadinho said:
What actually is so bad?
Biggest economy in the world.
Strongest military in the world.
VERY high per capita incomes.


I'm just going to assume you're arguing the anti just out of habit. Rolling Eyes

R


And I'm going to assume you don't know SHIT

BAD is your country facing starvation, economic collapse, civil war etc. Your complete lack of historical context means you are crying because your nail polish is chipped.


How many of those countries suffering from starvation, economic collapse, civil war etc are caused directly by American intervention?!
[quote]
RobW said:
vadinho said:
...you also need to say Clinton caused economic growth... and if so then surely getting Hillary in is the best move?


What, Hillary is a clone of Bill? She can achieve what he has? I doubt it.. he came in with a clean slate - she would come in with tons of baggage. For every person who loves the idea of her husband being there behind the scenes there is another who will steer well clear.

R


Logic:
1. If Clinton (B) could steer the economy well, with Clinton (H) helping, then
2. Clinton (H), with Clinton (B) helping, can do the same...
[quote]
vadinho said:

Logic:
1. If Clinton (B) could steer the economy well, with Clinton (H) helping, then
2. Clinton (H), with Clinton (B) helping, can do the same...


Laughing
1. If Montgomery could steer the Eight Army well, with Captain Whoever-the-Fuck helping, then
2. Captain Whoever-the-Fuck, with Field Marshal Montgomery helping, can do the same...

I don't necessarily disagree that getting Bill included helps (although I have significant concerns over whether or not it's an unconstituional third term by proxy) but don't put the word logic in there! Razz
[quote]
bill was a c__k, hilary is a c__t

who'd want either Confused
[quote]
vadinho said:
Logic:
1. If Clinton (B) could steer the economy well, with Clinton (H) helping, then
2. Clinton (H), with Clinton (B) helping, can do the same...


In some mathematical frameworks (and maths is just logic, right?), ab != ba.

I think this is a real world example of that principle Razz
[quote]
gummi_bear said:
(and maths is just logic, right?)


didn't Russell and Whitehead in Principia Mathematica prove that wrong?
[quote]
No. That work defended logicism.
[quote]
garethw said:
vadinho said:

Logic:
1. If Clinton (B) could steer the economy well, with Clinton (H) helping, then
2. Clinton (H), with Clinton (B) helping, can do the same...


Laughing
1. If Montgomery could steer the Eight Army well, with Captain Whoever-the-Fuck helping, then
2. Captain Whoever-the-Fuck, with Field Marshal Montgomery helping, can do the same...

I don't necessarily disagree that getting Bill included helps (although I have significant concerns over whether or not it's an unconstituional third term by proxy) but don't put the word logic in there! Razz


This is exactly true Razz
[quote]
gummi_bear said:
No. That work defended logicism.


defending is not proving
[quote]
As I was saying, Obama should shut up, African Americans can't be racist to white people. Mearly prejudice as a reaction to institutionalised racism.

Only the guilty would tell others to "forget about slavery" and move on.

Why don't they tell people to forget about the holocaust or Pearl harbour?
[quote]
it's gotta be a troll right...
[quote]
dark_light said:
As I was saying, Obama should shut up, African Americans can't be racist to white people. Mearly prejudice as a reaction to institutionalised racism.

Only the guilty would tell others to "forget about slavery" and move on.

Why don't they tell people to forget about the holocaust or Pearl harbour?


So do Muslims owe Yugoslavs an apology for invading and enslaving us?
Or should we just "forget about it"?
[quote]
vadinho said:
dark_light said:
As I was saying, Obama should shut up, African Americans can't be racist to white people. Mearly prejudice as a reaction to institutionalised racism.

Only the guilty would tell others to "forget about slavery" and move on.

Why don't they tell people to forget about the holocaust or Pearl harbour?


So do Muslims owe Yugoslavs an apology for invading and enslaving us?
Or should we just "forget about it"?

Who gives a fuck about Yugoslavia? Western Europe (the culture you love so much) certainly doesn't.

Not every Ethnic group in the region hates the muslims.
[quote]
The Christian ethnic ones seem to
[quote]
vadinho said:
RobW said:
vadinho said:
...you also need to say Clinton caused economic growth... and if so then surely getting Hillary in is the best move?


What, Hillary is a clone of Bill? She can achieve what he has? I doubt it.. he came in with a clean slate - she would come in with tons of baggage. For every person who loves the idea of her husband being there behind the scenes there is another who will steer well clear.

R


Logic:
1. If Clinton (B) could steer the economy well, with Clinton (H) helping, then
2. Clinton (H), with Clinton (B) helping, can do the same...


dude your formulae really turn me on sometimes
[quote]
dark_light said:
vadinho said:
dark_light said:
As I was saying, Obama should shut up, African Americans can't be racist to white people. Mearly prejudice as a reaction to institutionalised racism.

Only the guilty would tell others to "forget about slavery" and move on.

Why don't they tell people to forget about the holocaust or Pearl harbour?


So do Muslims owe Yugoslavs an apology for invading and enslaving us?
Or should we just "forget about it"?

Who gives a fuck about Yugoslavia? Western Europe (the culture you love so much) certainly doesn't.

Not every Ethnic group in the region hates the muslims.


Answer my question.

You seem to think only black people have been persecuted. On a global scale, black slavery doesn't even figure on the 'greatest injustices' list.

BTW who's more at fault - the guy who makes the drugs and sells them, or the user?
[quote]
Oh pleaseee, you are really trying to compare your situation to the Africans?! All you guys had to do was to convert to Islam and won't get raped. You are enjoying all the benefit of being white everyday and you dare to make such bullshit comparisons?!!!!

You fucking Serbs had it good. If i was a Turk i would def silence you! Laughing
[quote]
Obama has lost any respect I had given him

what a cunt to bail on Reverend Jeremiah Wright in the manner he has

for a short while I thought there was a person with some backbone and values fighting this race

No doubt Obama will make a fine president if elected and uphold the double standards the USA is so well known for

shame on you Mr Obama
[quote]
He couldn't win either way Mr. Daktari Smile
[quote]
yeah Gummi true that

he could have stayed true to himself and those that share his skin colour instead of dumping a man whom merely speaks the truth - why are Americans so adverse to the truth????

oh well he might become the next ineffectual president (brought and made by others) whilst Reverend Jeremiah Wright might very well become the next Martin Luther King Jnr
[quote]
does anyone have a link to the comments Wright made this time around? read an NYTimes article that basically said he had gone to far after being clearly frustrated that Obama was marginalising him to some extent, but haven't seen his comments yet...
[quote]
haven't seen the whole specch but here's some of his comments...

"Our congregation has sent dozens of boys and girls to fight in the Vietnam War, the first Gulf War, and the present two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. My goddaughter’s unit just arrived in Iraq this week, while those who call me unpatriotic have used their positions of privilege to avoid military service, while sending over 4,000 American boys and girls of every race to die over a lie."

"Our congregation took a stand against apartheid when the government of our country was supporting the racist regime of the African government in South Africa.

Our congregation stood in solidarity with the peasants in El Salvador and Nicaragua, while our government, through Ollie North and the Iran-Contra scandal, was supporting the Contras, who were killing the peasants and the Miskito Indians in those two countries.

Our congregation sent 35 men and women through accredited seminaries to earn their master of divinity degrees, with an additional 40 currently being enrolled in seminary, while building two senior citizen housing complexes and running two child care programs for the poor, the unemployed, the low-income parents on the south side of Chicago for the past 30 years.

Our congregation feeds over 5,000 homeless and needy families every year, while our government cuts food stamps and spends billions fighting in an unjust war in Iraq."

"God does not want one people seeing themselves as superior to other people. God does not want the powerless masses, the poor, the widows, the marginalized, and those underserved by the powerful few to stay locked into sick systems which treat some in the society as being more equal than others in that same society."

"The prophetic theology of the black church, during the days of chattel slavery, was a theology of liberation. It was preached to set free those who were held in bondage spiritually, psychologically, and sometimes physically. And it was practiced to set the slaveholders free from the notion that they could define other human beings or confine a soul set free by the power of the gospel."

"God’s desire is for positive change; real change, not cosmetic change; radical change or a change that makes a permanent difference, transformation. God’s desire is for transformation, changed lives, changed minds, changed laws, changed social orders, and changed hearts in a changed world."

I think Reverend Jeremiah Wright advocates Change, obama just likes the word
[quote]
bob daktari said:
"...some in the society as being more equal than others in that same society."


Starting to sound like the left leanings of Animal Farm.

R
[quote]
maybe so Rob but also rather apt and accurate and IMHO anyone that advocates actual equality in our and their society gets my thumbs up - even them that believe in this god thang

I am a leftie though Froggy
[quote]
bob daktari said:
maybe so Rob but also rather apt and accurate and IMHO anyone that advocates actual equality in our and their society gets my thumbs up - even them that believe in this god thang


Isn't it sort of unrealistically idealistic to think there will ever be equality?.. I mean person A is born... has all the opportunities of person B... but he's a few planks short and despite extra help etc.. gets involved in gangs and then crime.

When arrested for serious crime he then says, "I didn't have the opportunities that person B did.." - when they easily could have had - absolutely, and then some - but paved their own path down a 'bad' road.

This is why no matter how fair and equal you make any system/country/community - the people themselves are a huge determinant of how they perform/exist etc.

I agree with Obama actually on his now distancing himself from the Wright. With he reasoning being, the first thing he said (about "coming home to roost"Wink was way out of line - however true. The thing you quited seemed fine to me... But Obama was left with a choice of distancing himself from a potential grenade of bad PR. If he's supported Wright he may be encouraged to come out next week and claim the honkeys did this etc or something even more pointed/antagonistic.. which is why it's probably better for Obama to steer well clear of him now.

R
[quote]
I don't like how Obama has distanced himself - like your PR example over target in the lounge....

surely he would be better to say something along the lines of "he's my friend, he's my reverend, he has had a impact on my life, but that does not mean I agree with everything he says/stands for or he agree with all I stand for/say"

you know take ownership of the situation and do right by himself and reverend Wright without pandering to those whom are trying to make Obama look wishy washy/untrustworthy as he now does
[quote]
Obama is a "cracker hating" negro. FACT. He hates whites.
[quote]
bob daktari said:
surely he would be better to say something along the lines of "he's my friend, he's my reverend, he has had a impact on my life, but that does not mean I agree with everything he says/stands for or he agree with all I stand for/say"


I totally agree Bob. His advisers may have just said: once was fine but how many times before he says something you can't condone or justify?... Politics makes you take a side - not like us where we can have a mate who is an alcoholic womaniser who cross-dresses on Tuedays and be able to say "he can do whatever he wants.." US politics doesn't allow for the average person to make the distinction between live & let live and agreeing with someone.

R
[quote]
Clinton = loves blacks
Obama = hates whites

eot.
[quote]
I think the reverend is showboating. Obama wouldn't have had to distance himself if the reverend didn't keep putting himself in front of a microphone. From his last performance I'm pretty sure he likes the attention.

He clearly knows how politics works, and he must know that he is completely screwing Obama with his antics. This is what Obama is pissed about.
[quote]
I think Sebastian is absolutely right here. There was an element of vindictiveness in the reverend's actions I suspect...
[quote]
Obama wouldn't have had to ‘distance himself’ at all if he hadn’t happily sat through decades of this guys delusional racist ranting in the first place. Unfortunately he did.

Obama will never be President.


Pity cause he seemed like a nice guy...
[quote]
By the way, like a YEAR AGO I told you all that Obama belonged to a racist church and you all told me I was a fucking idiot.

VAD-D 1
Rest of you 0
[quote]
[quote]
Laughing Laughing
[quote]
Far out, this democratic race is amazingly close.

Obama won NC, but Indiana is close as fuck:

[code:1]Candidate # of votes % of total # of delegates
Hillary Clinton 606,497 50.69% 32
Barack Obama 589,888 49.31% 29[/code:1]

That after 95% of the votes being counted...
[quote]
vadinho said:
By the way, like a YEAR AGO I told you all that Obama belonged to a racist church and you all told me I was a fucking idiot.

VAD-D 1
Rest of you 0

Obama is a traitor to his brothers. How is Rev Wright racist? He is mearly pointing out the truth.

Whities can't complain about racism.