NZ becoming "friend" with the States

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/11/04/us-mends-ties-with-new-zealand/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101104/pl_afp/usdiplomacyasianzealand

Good thing or bad thing?

I'm a bit worried about what future ramifications Clintons visit to NZ will have. I really don't think we want to be alligning ourselves with the States. Apart from the fact they've waged two unwarranted wars recently they have an atrocious human rights record and getting buddy buddy with them over military issues will NEVER be any good for us as a country IMO.



Right now we're not really an ally again obviously, but are things gonna head in that direction? We're already supporting them in Afghanistan ... what's next?

And John Key, you fucken pleb! He calls Clinton President at the presss conference and then goes to shake her hand, but withdraws his hand just as she starts to reach out to shake. Way to go ...

I kinda agree with you. If someone was a known for all the wrong reasons - at least by a bug chunk of the world - the logical thing would be to keep your proximity to them on the down-low lest you get tarred with the same brush.

I am totally convinced NZ has a fortunate position in international relations because we are remote and fly under the radar of significance to most people - especially those who America sees fit to meddle with. Sure, it may seem like a drag when you want to travel or trade over these distances but I'd take that any day in exchange for the relative obscurity we have.

I agree Rob, that's pretty much my worry - that we'll get too intwined in US related military stuff ... I don't even think we should have SAS troups in Afghanistan. I honestly just don't see much good coming from creating closer ties with the US.

Whats really changed though? This has been the final thaw in relations post anzus.

Our traditional allies Aus and UK have troops in afganistan.

The US is a large market which will help us somewhat.

The US has renewed interest in the pacific to counter China (which is hardly an angel). And generally has very similar goals to us in this area. They also have lots of money which they might use to the advantage of pacific nations.

a good business person would play two competitors off to their advantage

in our case China & the US, both of whom are desparate for increasing their influence in our part of the world

instead we grovel before the US

jeezus isn't national meant to be the good bsuiness people...

My cousin said:

Any other nation and its military you've rather be aligned with? China, Russia, North Korea? The list is a short one...

And you dont think that might be what we are doing?

And my aunty from Texas is having a go at me, which I expected

Paul Buchannan was reported this morning as saying NZ would have to decide long term where it allegiance lies, in trade with China, or with the US (not that the US is offering us much economically at the moment?).

Considering international relations policy, i would much prefer for NZ to have a closer relationship with China than the US.

The US is fresh from an illegal war in Iraq, involving death of uncounted Iraqi civialians, use of torture, locking hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in detention, and on so on and so forth. China has a poor human rights record at home and in Tibet, but it has not attempted to the same scale of violations of soveriegnty and human rights as the US has overseas. Oh yeah, and the CIA in South America ....

The US is a great power in decline. It needs to learn to let go and allow a new world order that is NOT centered on America to come into being - for the good of everyone.

Sure we can be a friend of the US. But we shouldn't be propping up US interests, a state which is increasingly desperate given the massive cost of its numerous military adventures which thankfully europe and japan are no longer willing to contribute cash towards

I dont think we can afford to be in the lap of either but by the same token we cant stand up to either on many areas.

not sure we can afford not to be in someones lap - our best years as a nation were on britians lap... better to trade on set of boney knees for another than languish going slowly backwards

saying that we shouldn't be grovelling before them... as we just did with Hilary - we have more to offer than that shit

how did we grovel?

They are the ones wanting to reassert their influence in the pacific. We won the nuclear stalemate. They are theones grovelling for support in Afghanistan.

America. Squandering its resources since whenever. Be they natural resources, moral authority, goodwill or its economic ones. On fruitless military endeavours.

It seems to me we are if not in the front line then we are definitely on the bench for any new Pacific cold war that might occur between the USA and China. Clinton was here to shore up support and make sure the New Zealander's are on Uncle Sam's team ahead of any possible confrontation.

Given the recent defense reviews bald statement that (basically) we are an Australian satellite and where Australia stands we stand and where Australia goes we go, and Australia is so far up uncle Sam's arse the only thing you can see is the size of their shoes, I can't see how we cannot be in the US block by proxy.

We should be careful about assuming the demise of US power is inevitable. Despite all the impressions, the United States is still the biggest manufacturer in the world and it retains a significant technological lead over the Chinese. Militarily - well, the Chinese cannot yet even deploy a class of SSBNs that works reliably, let alone threaten the power of the USN - who after all have spent the last sixty years training for the Imperial Japanese Navy to show up so it can refight exactly the sort of blue water carrier engagement the Chinese seem so eager to want to create their own fleet to fight. It terms of raw military power, the United States can call upon the help of at least Canada, Japan (110+ major warships - far bigger than the Royal Navy!), the ROK, Taiwan, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand. It could probably expect support from Thailand, Malaysia, India and (maybe) Indonesia as well. All up a massively powerful Asia-Pacific alliance that easily contains China and one that doesn't even consider the military potential of the United State's European satellites in the NATO Alliance.

One cannot simply dismiss the strong racial, cultural and historical ties between the United States and New Zealand. As the 1982 Falklands War showed, in times of conflict there is a strong constituency in the New Zealand's white, Anglophile ruling class that strongly identifies with the Anglo-American world and it would be difficult to conceive of a set of circumstances where public opinion would not favour the USA in a major superpower confrontation with China. Basically, we will back the side that looked like us, spoke our language and with whom we share many components of our culture.

On the upside, we might soon qualify for lots of subsidised weapons and maybe even a bit of military aid so the armed force might get their jets back.