MP3 players and the people who love them...

Hey chaps,

Figured I'd post this here so it doesn't disappear off the page before lunchtime!

I'm just wondering if anybody has invested in an MP3 player recently and if so what model and specs?
Also, whats the sound quality like?

No comments about the superiority of vinyl/cd/dat please audiophiles. We all know MP3 isn't for everybody!

I recently bought a Creative Jukebox (6GB) and its pretty gnarly. They say you can fit 100 albums on it but I encode all my MP3s at the highest possible varible bitrate so I fit about 70 albums on it. No longer do I have to cart around 20 measley CDs when going on holiday!

Any thoughts?

where u get dat from and how much? i jsut bought a cd burner but hopefully im gana get a mini disc cause i heard u can get a cord from the US that plugs straight in. i dont buy cds or tapes or anything anymore i borrow copy or download i havea bout 10gig of songs i think

Yeah, I think the Apple iPod looks goddam sexy. (http://www.apple.com/ipod/) Hehehe, not sure if it's any good, but it uses FireWire which is sooo much better than USB (or USB 2.09 or anything else out there) You do need a firewire card on your PC though, which cost a bit (unless you get a Creative Labs Audigy soundcard, in which case you get a firewire port built in).

I'm not up with which ones are good, but I'd definitely make sure the player allows firmware upgrades to handle different audio formats (mp3 will die eventually, esp. if Micro$oft has its way).

(Good tactic posting here eh? Bloody lounge, I'm close to not reading it anymore - too much crap. Looks like the people on it could do with IM programs or something. *grin*)

Jukebox was really expensive (isn't all creative gear?) - $1500. I got it as soon as it came into the country which probably wasn't the smartest thing to do. I don't quite know why I got one but I'm glad I did.

Good points: Excellent sound quality, good stereo connectivity, Large hard drive (upgradable to 20Gb if you know how), friendly interface, can be used to store files (very handy), firmware upgradable, good transfer/ripping software,

Bad points: Useless headphones (which I don't use anyway), volume far too low, rechargable batteries a bit flakey

Neither here nor there: batteries last about 4 hours continual use but less if you're using them to transfer files to/from your computer. USB has acceptable transfer speeds but a tad slow, not robust enough to go running but can take a bit of a shock before it skips. Wee bit slow to start up (players using flash memory are much faster). Has a mains adaptor with a nice long cord.

Overall, bloody good purchase. I think the coolest thing is being able to go "Hmm, I wouldn't mind listening to that song right now" and being able to! It still doesn't hold my entire music collection (not even an eighth) but does hold enough to keep me happy from week to week. Of course if I upgaded the hard drive to 20 or 30Gb, I could comfortably fit everything I'm likely to want to hear for like the next 12 years! Woo hoo!

Also handy for transfering those 80Mb game demos you downloaded at work!

Forest: A friend of mine in Wellington copies all his CDs onto mini disc and then plays them from the mini disc bypassing the A/D converter on his stereo via the optical in. Sound quality is quite noticeably better. I don't quite understand how it works but its pretty impressive.

voiceinsideyou: yeah the apple ipod is great. Good price too. Firewire was a bloody brilliant idea. I didn't realize the Audigy card had a firewire port. Thats pretty cool. Closet hardware nut voiceinsideyou?

Yeah, I'm getting sick of the lounge. I'm quite busy at work at the mo so by the time I get to look at the boards any topics I replied to are already off the page. Irritating!

Transtemp: Umm, general PC nut somewhat, and yes, I keep it in the closet as I've never found it worth advertising. It's a hobby and an interest, but it's not my life (yet).

It's good you've got so much use out of it - 6GB was goddam huge when it came out, I can't even imagine how much stuff you can fit in 6GB. I considered the mp3 player thing myself, but most of my time listening to music is spent in my car, so I invested in a bigass stereo system there (until it got pinched).

If I started using public transport again it would probably become a viable option for me. When I was t college, catching the bus every day I used my discman to death. I had one of the first Sony Discmans that had been released, with the good ole' 3 second ESP. It was great compared to anything else out there at the time. Sold that a while ago anyway.

Firewire is very cool - but the PCI cards cost like $200 to buy with three ports. The Audigy sound cards are currently about $300 for a cut-down version with Dolby 5.1 decoding I think, which is reasonable. I'm staying away from recommending them as I've having a hell of a time with my SB Live! 5.1 under Win2k. Creative can't write WDM drivers for shit, basically.

Oh, the inner geek has been revealed. Oops.

Friend of mine got a firewire controller from Dick Smith for $135. He says its the one thing hes bought from Dick Smith that wasn't complete crap. Is the 3 ports thing significant?

I got the SB live! Platinum as well and I've had no problems with it under ME but I could see it being an issue under 2k. Bloody NT hardware support legacy they should have rectified.

I'm kind of a closet hardware geek too so you're not alone! I kind of got into it because I was buying a machine and I wanted to know what I was talking about.

Wow, $135 is a good deal, providing it works. I guess you don't need three ports unless you've got three firewire devices that you need to have plugged in at the same time. (Digital video freak?)

Yeah, I had no problems under 98se with my SB Live! 5.1, but under 2K I've had a nightmare. Creative Labs are basically a slack monopoly if you ask me. It took them ages to release the goddam WDM drivers, and then they've been oblivious to all the issues that still remain. They blamed everything on Via and the 686B bug in the KT133A chipset, ignoring the fact that the problem remains for a vast number of Win2k users even after that bug has been fixed, and on motherboards with other chipsets. It's frustrating for me, because I _really_ don't want to go back to Win98. 98 is a piece of shit, a badly designed operating system, at both the practical and theoretical level (insert geek snort here). Running 2k is a dream, apart from these hardware issues anyway.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I've been meaning to switch to 2k because ME pisses me off. It hangs all the time when doing anything with the DVD drive and occasionally it hangs when trying to multi-task. I've learnt to only have a couple of things open at a time which is really lame.

Musicmatch Jukebow for playin them on my comp and an Aiwa MP3CD head unit for playin them in my car....
sorted..

Umm as far as Portable music for me...
I chop and change between my Minidisc player and my iPAQ Pocket PC with a wadging great RAM card...

The pocket PC is great for buying records... I have a script which downloads all the files off Juno.co.uk, ID3 tags em and plops them on the pocket pc... Then I can listen to them and make a shopping liust in Pocket Excel...

*I just love being a geek*

Chris

A mate of mine just got a Rio Vault sp100 and it's pretty cool. One of those Cd/mp3 players which i think is the way to go. Has a good size display that scrolls the id3 tag info, is firmware upgradeable, and pretty good shock protection.

Quite cool ... except CD player's aren't solely solid state devices - they have mechanical parts so they skip. And you kinda need a CD writer then too.

Pure mp3 players - no skipping whatsoever, EVER ... oh well, I guess the hard disk based ones like the jukebox could skip, but at least the solid state ones (such as one's using CompactFlash or Memory Stick) won't ever skip.

Hmm, I'm not sure how good the shock protection is these days. Maybe it's really good...

The Jukebox will skip voice. You can't really go jogging with it, for instance but it does take quite a bit to make it skip!

The flash memory ones never skip, which is the cool thing about them I guess. Can't fit enough music on them though.

Cauld: Thats a pretty good idea, I've wondered about doing that myself but aren't there just snippets of songs? I take it you're talking about the track preview soundfiles?

Yeah, the Flash and MemSticks ar getting better though. Pity they are so heavily patented or something and cost so goddam much. Basically you've got to get a big stick/card with the hardware or otherwise it's noy economic to buy 'em.

Ascent has the 128Mb Sony Memory Sticks at $440 for instance. I guss at last with Sony's mem. stick you can use it in other devices if you're a technology addict.

Hmm 128MB CompactFlash is like $260. Still damn expensive ah?

yeah flash stuff is redicuously expensive, the other nice thing about the cd one's is that you can carry pretty much your whole collection in one cd wallet.
Can't do that with flash unless your one rich bugga. I think having to keep changing whats on the memory stick would be a pain in the butt too, cd's you do it once plus the added convenience of having a cd player.
if you've really got money and don't mind waiting a bit getting a dvd mp3 player would be the way to go don't think their out yet but won't be long.

ahhh... current affairs is so refresing after sifting through the lounge.

Yeah, and the DVD writer which at the moment costs like $1500 doesn't it?

Yeah, I love the current affairs forum, even though I have been monopolising it with geek talk lately. :-/

*mental note: stop being so geekish on here*

Exactly voice/moose, thats kinda what stopped me getting a flash mp3 player. Too expensive.

Current affairs column is a bit more chilled out ay! Its more loungey than the lounge! Nah, the geek talk is all good voice. Gives me something to talk about other than dance music events!

Indeed. And also more than whether you like to scratch your ass before or after you get out of bed. *smile*

Hey all that stuff is important man. I read all those threads right to the bottom because I love knowing what animals people would be.

Yeah, me too. Admittedly I have been known to post on some of those threads, but only out of sheer boredom/procrastination from doing something else in life, I claim.

I felt ashamed immediately though. It's a bit like you and dirty trance tunes....

I was talking to redbeast last night and she said she was talking the piss when she posted that thread about the 'animals'. Everybody still posted. Oh well.

Exactly right. Picked up on that did you? Ha ha! Yeah, I listen to some cheesy trance tunes. Its a guilty indulgence. Thats why I occasionally go to bEd incognito...

Yeah, cheesy trance is something I can only /really/ get into in a club. Was listening to some Paul van Dyk in my car the other day. Left uninspired.

"All I wanna do is do it..."

apples ipod seems to be the go, look at the
specs

firewire (30 times faster than usb)
5gig memory (1000 songs)

and tiny, due in nz in january

can't wait

uhhh isn't USB 2.0 faster than firewire??
i'm not following mp3 players like i use to, i'm sick of the 'mpeg sound' to be honest, decided to focus on vinyl 100%

having said that i still entered the draw for the iPod on totallymac
although it'll prolly go straight onto ebay/trademe

Totally mirage. The proviso is that you have to have a Mac. Because I guarantee there won't be any transfer software for windows machines!

borinscary: The 'mpeg sound'? Whats that?

i think borinscary means "shithouse"

ive only made my MD skip once... ever

and i threw it on the ground...

I was asking for that really wasn't I?

For me, MP3s are just another format and mainly for convinience. I have enough of an educated ear that I can pick up differences in sound quality between formats and devices but I'm not a DJ or an audiophile, I don't play tunes in a club environment and I don't own a $50,000 stereo. In short, I'm not enough of an audio wanker to worry about it!

NOT that I'm saying you guys are audio wankers. I wouldn't dream of it.

Its probably sacrilege but I'd really like to hear what an MP3 sounds like played in a club environment (like FU) just to see what it sounds like.

I was asking for that really wasn't I?

For me, MP3s are just another format and mainly for convinience. I have enough of an educated ear that I can pick up differences in sound quality between formats and devices but I'm not a DJ or an audiophile, I don't play tunes in a club environment and I don't own a $50,000 stereo. In short, I'm not enough of an audio wanker to worry about it!

NOT that I'm saying you guys are audio wankers. I wouldn't dream of it.

Its probably sacrilege but I'd really like to hear what an MP3 sounds like played in a club environment (like FU) just to see what it sounds like.

Listen to pretty much any DJ set where the DJ is spinning off CD and generally there will be a few MP3 tracks.

You took the words right out of my mouth cauld! Thats exactly what I meant to do!

Yeah USB 2.0 is 460MBps I think, whereas FireWire/i.Link/IEEE1394 is 100, 200, or 400Mbps. I'm not sure how they compare in terms of latency and 'actual' performance, which are important as well, as anyone using a LAN will know about. Who 'actually' gets 100Mbit out of their 10/100 LAN anyway? Only those with fucking expensive hubs and cards, that I know of.

Anyway, USB2.0 still isn't widely supported yet. Does anyone know if it uses the same kind of connector as FireWire? Someone told me it did, but I'm too lazy to find out.

128kilobit mp3s chomp the bass up. Sounds all fucked up, but I don't noticed it as much as most people. Apparently 192 kilobit mp3s are much, much better - but it varies between mp3 codec.

*shrug* It's a pity overall though. The iPod looks good and seeing I intend to revert to the public transport system soon, I might be in the market for a portal mp3 player upgradable for future codecs. Damn.

transtemporal - like i said - it sounds shit house
- if i imagine if i was playing your favourite tune
of vinyl in the club, killed the bass and the highs,
and stuck two 50c coins on the cartridge - thats
close to what an mp3 sounds like - IMO

I find it pretty unprofessional to play an MP3 in a
nightclub, but then fidelity matters to me.

I use mp3 for shopping for 12"s off the net - but i
couldnt imagine listening to them for enjoyment
- although the 192khz(?) files are not too bad for
making out general idea of quality - ive been
caught out a few times buying tunes on the net
that way and when you finaly get and play the
record it sounds just as shitty!

the iPod def looks pretty cool, even as an
external HD - but then, im a mac user

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I realize now why people praise the soundsystem at Fu so much. It has a real nice 'depth' if thats such a term. I'm not sure whether thats an effect of the space or whether its an effect of the vinyl but it sure sounds cool!

Still, I MP3ed the new Lamb album at 320kbps (which is _real_ bass heavy) and that seems to have retained the low and high frequencies quite nicely. Although again, it could be an effect of the my room/stereo/soundcard. Who knows?

I know what you mean about the MP3 (on the net) being as bad as the original. Some records are just mastered badly!

I'm not an expert, but don't audio systems have to do some fucked up, complicated amplification to boost the bass off a vinyl due to the idosyncracies of the media? I seem to remember Colgate talking to me about this a while ago, but haven't remembered the finer points.

However, agreed - playing an mp3 is pretty unprofessional I suppose, that's what DATs are for, right?

voiceinsideyou - the amplification and re-eqing
of a vinyl cut is done in the phono preamp in the
mixer. When a vinyl cut is being made, the bass
is reduced in a particular way according to the
RIAA standard - if this wasn’t done - the record
grooves would need to be prohibitively wide and
deep.

Then the cartridge reads this information which
travels to the preamp which reboosts and eqs
those frequencies to their original and returns
the level to standard "line level" (such as cd
level) for further processing within the mixer (eq,
fader etc).

DAT (digital audio tape) is the original high
quality digital medium (records at 48khz
compared to that of cd at 44.1) but like all tapes,
are prone to malfunction at the worst of times -
and DAT also gives no provision for pitch
control.

Due to the advent of 24bit software recording -
this is often the masterers medium of choice
these days - but if you want to get fussy -
apparently the best results are to master onto a
magneto optical drive. Some studios
apparently still master to two inch tape (moving
shadow being one last I heard) - but this sort of
effort is completely lost in such media as an
mp3.

transtemporal - thanks for the kind words about
the fu system, the system is really good - its the
room itself in there which is the worst enemy -
and don’t get me started on that bloody air flow
duct!!! heh

But seriously, the detail comes from it being a
4way speaker design (tweeter and 5" hi freq
driver) handling the high frequencies together
as well as the 15" for the mids and the 18" and
15" subwoofers. I think the real secret is in the
limiting - the system uses a Martin DX1
controller, which allows independent limiting of
the hi/mid/lo bands. This means that unlike a
normal limiter which will limit the volume of the
entire program once the threshold is reached,
the DX1 has separate thresholds for each
frequency, so if there is an excursion of a bass
sound past that of the bass limiter, the lows will
be limited, but the hi's and mids will not -
preventing the "ducking and breathing" sound of
a full range limiter. SO if you are concentrating
on say, a hi hat and a bass note goes crazy, the
hi hat will stay exactly where it is, and not get
lost in the compression - meaning the clarity is
unaffected.

Yeah, that's what I was alluding to re: the bass having to be reduced and then amp'ed up again. Interesting reading though, maybe some of that will stick in my brain this time.

I take it you're not very keen about CD audio as a recording medium too, with it's relatively low sampling and bitrate. Have you had much experience with max quality DVD audio? What are your thought. With 74 mins of audio on a DVD can't you sample at 24-bit (wheras CD is 16 bit) at 192KHz? That kind of sampling rate should produce a waveform much closer to that of the analog signal, at least.

Are club sound system generally designed in theory to have flat response across the audio spectrum, or does it depend on the club? I was into car audio for a while, although never an audiophile. DId a bit of reading of the bigoted shit in some car audio magazines, but one of the things I did establish was that the aim is for flat, or at least smooth response across all audio freqs. (at last for competition car audio)

This of course was notoriously difficult in a terrible acoustic environment like a car, and lead to all sorts of craziness with equalisers & crossovers, mixed with a nice, sorted four or even five-way system usually.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the purpose of the limiters? Is this basically what a standard equaliser does to reduce the volume of one particular frequency - put a limit on the output of a particular freq band? Or is about protecting the audio system (and punters) from rogue audio that isn't normalised correctly?

ahhh sorry yeah - a limiter is what stops a dj
blowing your eardrums basically by controlling
how much level gets through to the amps
(although some amps have limiter built in) - this
also helps protect the speakers. I got flamed for
saying this last time - but consider the WSX
subs in Fu - each one is capable of producing
135db volume - if this wasnt contolled, it can
actualy haemmorage internal organs (so im
told).

As for cd - i like the format - esp when listening
to music with a wide dynamic range (quite and
loud patches) - any quite parts on vinyl get to
much noise from the turntable itself (imagine a
$10000 turntable next to a technics 1200 - there
IS a reason some people pay that much for a
player). However i am lucky enough to still be
able to hear up to about 18khz so i can detect
the difference between a 16bit (cd) and a 24bit
recording. Most systems however (including
magnetic cartridges) only allow a frequency
response of about 20hz-20khz so any extra
fidelity outside these parameters becomes
useless on vinyl - although, i remember reading
about an ortofon moving coil cartridge that had
the responce of 5hz-90khz!!!! Thats enough for
dogs and elephants to get full enjoyment from
your records lol.

But seriously, unless you are making an
analogue recording (eg microphone) onto a
analogue format (ie tape) you would not get
these frequencies to the disk due to the nature
of digital audio (which from memory is limited to
the 20hz-20khz range much like a cartridge) -
but this is the whole can'o'worms argument
between digital and analogue - so long as you
can record the music in enough frames so that
the ear cannot detect the aliasing that occurs
with a digital waveform - cutting off frequencies
outside of the ears ability to hear is considered
ok .

Im on the side of the audiophiles here tho in that
this does not take into consideration the bodies
biggest organ - the skin - which detects
movements in air that our eardrums do not.
This argument is practially worthless these
days due to most music recorded onto vinyl has
come from a digital source, and is therefore
limited to the "allowable" frequencies already.

On a big PA however - i find the actual analogue
action of the cartridge "softens" the sound
somewhat compared to that of cd - making it
less tiring on the ears.

As for the eqing of a big system - im a believer
in the flat response - that way you should be
able to hear the music as the artist intended.
EQing of a system in theory should just be
undertaken to correct deficencies in the room
itself - the fu system for instance has a narrow
but substantial notch out at 255hz to allow for a
resonance problem which occurs in that room -
prolly due to the booth being in the corner of the
room. But although this notch is almost
undetectable, it makes a big difference to the
improved "cohesion" of the audio imageing.

Did i get everything?


D

Yeah man - that's what I thought the limiter was for, but I guess it all feels pretty crude ah? I guess it's nie to know there's some protectio from oversealous DJs though. Another thing I wonder about often is how the amps survive at the temperatures they have in clubs and events at times. I used to have heat issues with my Rockford Fosgate Punch amp in the back of my car when piling out 300W RMS bridged @ 2 ohm, into my Soundstream SPL15 DVC sub going about 115dB, and that was at room temperature. The amp kept cutting out from overheating. Sure - that was just conduction cooled via metal heatsinking of the amp case and components, but even when I installed some fans it used to have issues at times. In a club the heat and humidity can be extortionate - so what is done to cool the amps? I would have thought fans and heatsinking wouldn't be enough in such conditions, under such heavy loud for a prolonged period of time.

Yeah bass response just /has/ to go to 10Hz to get me really going. I used to love the shivers I'd get down my spine in my car from the good old Bass music I used to use to test my system's response. And the fact that every time I'd go for a drive my high center mirror would have to be re-adjusted every ten minutes due to the vibration rippling along the roof.

Wow, I'm impressed that my hasilty learnt crude audio stuff in the car audio scene is somewhat relevant out in true club audio systems. I'm all for flat response EQing too. However, what I did like the flexibility to do was to ramp up the bassline in my car for listening to the radio and stuff. I had a good head unit, which had a really high quality EQ built in, so adjusted the pre-amp for the Sub out was usually enough. A little crude from a purists standpoint (adjusting the pre-amp signal) but better than leaning back into the boot and dialing the gain knobs on the amps.

I guess, in terms of the ear's functionality, mine are probably decaying quite quickly in their ability to distinguish the high freq sounds. I like not being a purist and enjoyng the hype though.

One thing does get me. Rattling at resonant freqs. Phoenix in Wellington has got this one panel (or something) to the 'south' of the toilets on that wall high up that gets a bitch ass rattle. I reckon it must be at about 200Hz (at a guess). It's painful!

Top shelf job on the Fu soundsystem slug! Fucken hell dude, you're an audio geek!

I take it then that the reason for the shithouse MP3 sound arises (in part) from the 20hz-20khz digital range and the aliasing that bridges missing frequencies?

Why did you get flamed on this topic last time?

Well mp3 is generally sampled at the same rate as CD usually, as far as I know 44.1KHz, so the bad sound should be more to do with the compression of the data than the aliasing, hence the quality differing between mp3 codecs that sample at the same rate and at th samr throughput.

But I'm just hazarding guesses. I'm all ready to be shot down by resident audio geek, slug.

im an official audio geek! Wheres my cap and
badge?

voiceinsideyou - im afraid i dont know enough
about the process involved in coding mp3's (i
shudder to think!) to help so i will just tell you to
check that out on the net somewhere if you
wanna know - and post it, so everyone else can
learn too.

and transtemporal - thanks for the kind words,
and i got flamed last time cos some nasty little
man thought i was bragging about the
performance of the WSX subs, jeez you try and
be helpful and some people.........

Fuck, I'll MAKE you a cap and badge bruva. Yeah, I've been meaning to find out a bit about compression technologies for a while now, but got lazy. I'm hoping we're gonna cover them in one of my Comp. Sci. courses next year on Design and Analysis of Algorithms. We probably won't though. Hmmph.