Moral Relativity - Kosovo and Osama Bin Laden

In 1999, in response to what they saw as crimes against humanity (despite lack of evidence), NATO launched a series of airstrikes on Yugoslavia. At the end of those strikes, 2000 civilians were dead in Serbia itself and another 10000 in Kosovo-Metohija.

In 2001, in response to what they saw as crimes against religion, al-Qaeda launched a series of airstrikes on the US. At the end of those strikes, 6000 civilians were dead.

Both were monstrous crimes, but to claim that the attack on the WTC is somehow any 'different' to thousands of similar actions carried on by the world's great powers is ridiculous. The WTC attacks are only different because of Western hypocrisy which seems to think that only the US matters. It might pay to recall that the US doesn't allow its own citizenry to be tried by the International Court of Justice citing its belief that international law is unsuited for such.

Terrorism is both individual- and state-sponsored.

indeed. & the best Slobodan Milosevic can look forward to is a trial by a tribunal entirely setup up by the west (ICTY), and to be allowed no counter prosecution of his own - USA made certain of this, for reasons we both know.

so what are his charges, the direct and command responsibility for the murder of ethnic albanians.
to clarify: Direct responsibility arises when an official orders or authorizes unlawful acts even if he or she does not carry them out personally.

and NATO was not guilty of this? in what conflict is a side not guilty to some degree?

and while i'm here i'd like to ask what IS terrorism? causing terror among innocent & civilised people, with weapons of destruction?
i don't know about you, but a 1000lb mk83 dropping on my neighbours house would terrorise me!!

According to the FBI terrorism is "an unlawfull act of violence against a govt. or civilian poulation with the intertion to coerce.." shit i can't remember. Something like that anyway.

Differnce between the NATO attacks and the Trade Tower incident: The moral majority in the world, the so called "western cultures" would almost certainly unanimously agree the "crimes against humanity" (though unproven) were morally wrong. However the U.S. "crimes aginst religion" are only thought to be morally wrong and therefore punishable, by a minority of extremests. I think you will find that the majority of islamics and arabs in general do not agree with the actions of the al-Qaeda.

I don't want to suggest that the U.S is without blame in the situation, I simply suggest the have the moral high-ground so to speak.

Hrm, interesting about this "majority". In the US and the UK, yes, but in Germany, Italy, France, Russia and Greece there were majorities AGAINST the bombing of Yugoslavia. I also have a problem in simply saying that because a lot of people suppoted an action, it's necessarily moral. One righteous man may be more moral than a mob, as we all know.
I believe that a sizeable portion of Islamic people do actually support al-Qaeda, however they have been forced to keep this support "under the covers"

If its under the covers how did you find out?? Hmmmmm.. seems like i'm not the only psychic one.

The muslim majority may not support the WTC attack but are probably at least sympathetic to the reasons behind them.

Good point Vadinho.

Hes not psychic - hes guessing (I think).

Heres a metaphor. Imagine if your life revolved around being a new zealander. Being a new zealander dictated your daily life. For decades the west have no respect for new zealanders and kill them very often for whatever reasons. Then one day some new zealanders flew planes into the WTC etc. Because of fear of america killing us we'd say we didnt support the kiwis who flew the planes, but of course we would.

George Bush is very similar to Hitler. Except hes breeding hate against Muslims not Jews and is going about his crimes in a way the world seems to agree with. The sooner he falls the better.

*shrug* Sensationalist language there Giznad. Not entirely substantial, nonetheless.

firstly he psychic reference was a personel joke in reply to an earlier post.

Secondly, I think alot of people are being far to quick to jump on the pro-islamic bandwagon. The U.S is justified in the "war on terrorism" Many people enjoy pointing out the similarities between what the al'Qaeda did to the U.S. and what the U.S has done to thier nation for years. But the U.S. I still feel holds the moral high ground. You like metaphors? Try this. Imagine that your whole life revolved around being a New Zealander. Imagine that within this system of beliefs there was a MINORITY extremist group that took their beliefs to the very extreme. This group would kill people who didn't drink beer, they beat women who tryed to express their opinions. They would kill men that did not play rugby. In fact the performed acts of violence against anyone who did not have the same beliefs as they did. In particular, this group despised Australians and would direct many of their attacks against Australia and Australians around the world. This group would also attack people from within their society that wanted to move with the times and adopt a more "westernised belief system". Imagine one day this exteremist group flew planes into the opera house in Sydney. Would you support their actions??

Theres much to the story than most see. NO ONE is in the right 100% MOst of the al-Qaeda's hate is only directed at the U.S. by association. It is the Israelis that they they have the beaf with. The are angry at the U.S. for supporting the Isrealis.

giznad
I agree that Bush is bad for America. I was outraged when Americans voted him in. The situation Bush faces and the situation Hitler created are however completly different situations. To generalise them together, about their treatment towards religions is not in my OPINION fair.

Fair enuff. Points taken.

I sometimes phrase stuff incorrectly and dream up metaphors that don't quite work.

I just want to make it clear that I hate with a vengence the people who attacked the civilians in the USA on september 11, it was a disgusting act.

I also hate the many americans who have launched similar attacks in tha past such as against the serbians as vadinho pointed out.

Killing is wrong, no matter why its done. No matter who does it. No matter who they do it to.

And two wrongs dont make a right.

Yeah. As I have argued (probably with you) in another thread, Giznad - consider whether killing 1 person to save the lives of 10 more is 'right'.

I, and the US would argue that it is, and that it is the rationale behind the US actions. Death is never a good thing, except when it's saving the deaths of many others. That may sound rednecked - but it's actually a relatively rational argument if you ask me.

Good metaphor JBird.

If the US withdrew from Saudi Arabia immediately after September 11 there would be no more killings in the US. That would be the most humanitarian course of action

Yes, true, but the since the Saudis are friends of the US, and are happy with them there (I expect) it seems like blackmail for them to get out just because Osama wants them to....

Unless there's more to it than I know, which there probably is.