Might be a good test case........

So there's a plan to make NZ smokefree by 2020. I'm all for it. I won't call myself an ex-smoker just yet cos I only gave up recently but I have stopped for now.....but I digress.

I start this thread because of the recurring debate re: drugs and whether they should be legalised / regulated. The most common (and the only argument that might have any merit) in favour of regulation of drugs rather than an outright ban, is that banning drugs will drive the addicts (and dealers) underground, thereby creating a black market of 'dirty' drugs that have much more severe effects on the users, and the drugs will be much more expensive, thereby driving the addicts to commit crimes in order to fund their drug habits.

Now nicotine is an addictive substance and the tobacco industry has been in NZ for a pretty long time, do those who favour regulation of drugs believe that banning smoking in NZ will result in a black market for cigarettes, where smokers have to meet in an abandoned warehouse in Mangere to get their next nicotine hit, and that lower income nicotine addicts will have to steal cars and re-sell them in order to have enough money to buy their cigarettes which will undoubtedly sky-rocket in price after the ban?

I am not a smoker, and have never smoked, but I would publicly protest this fascist assault on our rights.

I am all for safety, but fuck it, alcohol and cigarettes obviously make life better. We've already banned drugs, speeding, and some sex, so what's left?

what about the tourists?

im not really fussed with banning it. Just change it so people cant smoke in confined spaces or around doors (it blows inside)

no govt of ours will ever have the balls

as for doors - close em bob... jeeze do us smokers have to hold your hand whilst you do it as well?

slow news time of year in NZ only

um yeah people need to use normal doors so they open and shut all the time. sliding doors like at cafes are open to let the air through. If the wind is blowing into the building then you may as well let people smoke inside. Many countries have laws about how close to the doors you can stand while smoking.

law in NZ is no smoking within 1m from any building entrance was my understanding......which is bugger all but it's something.

So no one wants to respond to the main point of the thread then - is there going to be a cigarette black market or not? And if not - why is this the case for other substances but not for nicotine?

There is already apparently. Wasnt there a 60 minutes type thing on it a while back. I think the trick is to put up the price slowly so people get used to it. Death by a thousand cuts perhaps. I think it is a generational thing too, lots of old people have just decided they have nothing to lose. No way to change their attitudes cept let em die off.

yep the def is a black market already, professional and not so - I on occassion brought duty free ciggies via cafe staff with ties to certain airline cabin crew (ie a not very professional black market supplier)

Theres people even growing their own, especially in the upper south island.

err growing and supplying i mean.

well - don't know if that qualifies as a black market perse.....what you guys are describing is just the consumer going for the cheapest available option. What you're describing isn't really illegal is it? Is growing tobacco illegal in NZ?

I was thinking about black market in the sense of "it is illegal to have the stuff, but people do purchase it at an inflated price and smuggle it around from supplier to consumer."

Prohibition didn't stop people from wanting to drink (or drinking) alcohol, and cigarrettes are much more addictive.

So my answer would be yes.

I believe in the case I cite that it could be construed as a breach of our retail tobacco laws, black market is simply a market outside of the legal one yes?

You can get grow your own tobacco kits - I believe its legal to grow for personal supply not sure about for sale (I doubt it, unless licensed to)

of course you need a licence - and you cant sell it otherwise you could avoid all the tax like on alcohol.

Would you protest the same for Heroin or Crack Cocaine? Because there is really no difference between them and cigarettes except for the fact that one is much more stealthy in the way it goes about killing people and if so why aren't you protesting for the legalisation of these other drugs now?

Tough subject, part of me says people should be able to do what they want to themselves but the other part of me knows most people are too stupid to apply the common sense required for such freedoms. Also you have the 'born addicts' who never really get a chance to decide for themselves anyway.

The reality is a lot of people need the nanny state and in fact their livelihood depends on it.