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[quote]
I re-read the meltdown thread kicked off by NR 7 months ago over the weekend but didnt think it was so good as to resurrect.

Certainly seems to me that we need another meltdown thread though! .

Bear Stearns collapse is really quite big folks. Big enough for the Feds to be really concerned about systemic failure now.

USD refuses to correct up. It now buys less than 98 yen and less than one Swiss Franc. For some time its been worth less than a Canadian dollar , and my mates are now talking about Aussie dollar parity! (Yes I'm long AUD from 92.5 now 94.5)

The subprime crisis hit NZ last week with ING (a Kiwi Saver provider) cancelling redemptions on a couple of its funds due to illiquidity issues.

Kiwi stocks continue to bleed.
Cash is king.
[quote]
yep the looney leftie sites I visit have been going crazy apeshit bonkers over the impending 'crash'

is this the end?

and if so... smoke em if you've got em Smile
[quote]
Agreed - it's big news when the Fed completely avoids the moral hazard concepts and basically buys out a bank. The problem will be if players see that as a free cheque to continue with risk; you would certainly hope we're past that point though.
[quote]
http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/monetary/20080316a.htm

yeh so it seems the Feds lowered the credit rate on a Sunday!!!
[quote]
cash may be king but what do you do with it?
[quote]
winters coming (here) Nr... you burn it (guess our money is useless for this) or stuff it into your clothes for warmth
[quote]
you're right about that burning it call, I've got a diesel heater and at 1.33/ liter it's a judgment call as to which is more heat producing the money or the oil
[quote]
Night Rider said:
cash may be king but what do you do with it?


compound interest - you may not get rich quickly but at 8-9% pa its not toooo bad - whats important in this type of environment is capital preservation so you can be ready to reinvest again later when the real bargains appear.
[quote]
and during lunchtime the pain spread to NZD and AUD
both falling nearly 2 cents during a few hours.

I guess that what happens when the US movers and shakers lose their shirts they look to sell anything and everything they can to bolster up their other shit. Yeh my AUD deal profits wiped out lol stop loss is at 91 so may recover yet

forgot to mention GOLD and SILVER

gold now at over $1020 per oz hows that Antics?
silver over $21 I'm still holding the majority of what I have - a few days ago I sold a small portion at 21 and then bought it back at 19.50, but its a good hedge against total meltdown so wont be too keen to take profits unless it hits $100 or something insane like that. (it did hit $70 a few decades ago - whereas GOLD is at new all time historical highs)
[quote]
peat said:
whats important in this type of environment is capital preservation so you can be ready to reinvest again later when the real bargains appear.

or now, as with JPMC picking up Bears for rock bottom...
[quote]
read that this morning

I had already heard whispers over the past few weeks that a major US was on the brink of collapse so it was interesting to finally learn who everyone was gossiping about...
[quote]
gold could go much much higher according to a financial guru on the pbs news hour silver tagging along behind at its usual 50:1 ration innit?
[quote]
I am actually quite concerned about this situation.

The monetary tools that were supposed to have brought stability have been abused to create this present situation. But this time it has gone too far. Now they are trying to use the same tools again to correct for the mistake. But its not working as it should do.

Excess liquidity is one of the major causes of this present situation, and the more they inject into the system the more they devalue the dollar, people loose faith in fiat and attempt to put it into commodities (like gold) that are more likely to retain their value.

The Fed may lower their rates, but the banks, who are the only ones that can approach the Fed window, are not willing to take on more debt and are vary cautious about lending in this type of scenario, and to top it off, consumers are not willing to borrow more money since they have already borrowed to the hilt. And all they would be willing to borrow would be to pay back debt, which does not increase consumer spending and, therefore, does not necessarily stave off a recession.

This entire situation is a page straight out the Austrian Business Cycle Theory....
[quote]
Night Rider said:
silver tagging along behind at its usual 50:1 ration innit?


that ratio has been contracting NR. imo it may change a lot over the medium term. it has been 16:1

yes Rival its classic stuff and the Fed doesnt have much ammo left , ask the BOJ.
[quote]
peat said:
BOJ.


Confused

can I get an English translation please for those of us who don't speak in acronyms

kthx Razz
[quote]
Fuck being in Bernanke's shoes right now.

He has quite a mess to cleanup.
[quote]
Bank of Japan
they have had effective zero interest rates for nearly two decades and it hasnt really boosted their economy. Its called Deflation.


Bernanke will keep pushing on that piece of string tho. I'm pretty sure hes been quoted as saying something about throwing dollar bills from helicopters if necesary

Heres what he wrote in 2002 about this very situation
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2002/20021121/default.htm
[quote]
and LOL heres a blurb on Bernanke showing what a White House crony he is
The articles even enitled Ben "Helicopter" Bernanke Laughing
[quote]
Yes that term "Helicopter Drop" originates from Milton Friedman I believe, I know that he mentions it in Free To Choose but not sure if it was stipulated in any of his prior works.

The term was coined to suggest that a monetary authority can escape a liquidity trap by bypassing financial intermediaries to give money directly to consumers or businesses. This is referred to as a money gift or as helicopter money.
[quote]
RON PAUL BLASTS FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN BEN BERNANKE

[quote]
garethw said:
peat said:
whats important in this type of environment is capital preservation so you can be ready to reinvest again later when the real bargains appear.

or now, as with JPMC picking up Bears for rock bottom...

I dont understand this deal. Who sold it exactly? I mean at Fri close it was still trading for $30 approx. So how can a price of $2 be agreed upon. Who set that figure. The BS management? But they dont actually own the shares.
Sure I understand that IF it was insolvent then the shares may plummet to zero, but insolvency doesnt necessarily mean its worth nothing or even as little as $2. Plenty of companies shares trade above zero when they are insolvent coz there may eventually be some positive NTA even after the creditors have been paid

Anybody understand this?
[quote]
here you go peat

quote:
NEW YORK - Angry Bear Stearns shareholders have wasted no time in bringing legal claims following the company's stunning stock collapse and US$2 ($2.53)-a-share fire sale to JPMorgan Chase & Co.

At least one federal lawsuit in New York seeking class- action status for alleged securities fraud was filed on Monday by an investor contending the company hid its true financial condition from shareholders.

Also filed was a lawsuit from a company worker who held Bear Stearns shares in his retirement portfolio and says the company failed to properly manage risks in the pension plan. That suit also seeks class-action status.

Other investors may bring cases challenging the company's pact to sell itself for a rock-bottom price, legal experts say. But courts are seen as unlikely to kill the buyout deal.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10498867

and
quote:

Even the most successful investors can get it horribly wrong, as reclusive British tycoon Joe Lewis has just found out.

The septuagenarian British billionaire currency trader last year built a stake approaching 10 per cent in Bear Stearns , a US investment bank weakened by the subprime crisis and widely seen as a takeover target.

The speculation was half right. JP Morgan set a deal to buy the stricken bank over the weekend, but at a knockdown US$2 ($2.53) a share, implying a loss for Lewis of more than US$1 billion.

Lewis on Monday called the takeover offer "derisory", according to US business news channel CNBC, and said he does not expect JP Morgan to be successful in closing the deal.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10498830
[quote]
i read those already NR. Of couse there will be some angry shareholders re the collapse. Most of those claims related to people feeling ripped off given that the chairman of the co had only a few days ago assured them things were ok. (NEVER EVER BELIEVE EXECS WHO SAY THIS - so many examples of bare faced lying in business history)
What I'm saying is that there is no shareholder approval for the deal. Just like with AIA there wasnt until very recently.
I guess the Board is saying "Company is now worthless but we;ve convinced JPM to buy for $2 so you'd be a fool not to accept"

We'll see .....


and Cullen saying

But we are not expecting to see the economy going through the floor," he told reporters.

"I think people when they hear the word think of depression and something long, sustained and with large increases in unemployment.

"I don't see the prospect of that."
[quote]
Yup peat, deal is still dependent on shareholder approval but that is being taken as a given everywhere I read.
Not sure what is stopping someone else coming in to offer more, except perhaps significant contractual penalties signed with the board.

Apparently their head office building alone, which they own, is worth more than the takeover price!
[quote]
the problem for BS is that once your customers lose faith in your liquidity the deals just dry up. No deals no income. As the press reported last week specifically in relation to BS (and I will extend this to fiat currency coz I like doing that) its all about faith.
People lost faith in Northern Rock, they lost faith in BS, and they are of course rapidly losing faith in the worlds reserve currency.
[quote]
peat said:
the problem for BS is that once your customers lose faith in your liquidity the deals just dry up. No deals no income.


Absolutely, and I believe this is why the JPMC deal went through - it had to be done mighty fast or the bank would have collapsed entirely. $2 > $0 I suppose
[quote]
Soon the only valuable metal will be lead, delivered from a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. Stock up on tinned food as well.

Mad Max economy...
[quote]
shareholders can't do much else but approve with this option only open to them

quote:

Other investors may bring cases challenging the company's pact to sell itself for a rock-bottom price, legal experts say. But courts are seen as unlikely to kill the buyout deal.

That is because the venerable investment bank, which agreed to the emergency deal under pressure from the US Federal Reserve as the credit crunch widens, appears to have few other options short of filing for bankruptcy, legal experts say.
[quote]
what I find a bit strange is quotes like the last line of that article

"It all adds up to one of the more painful moments in world economic history."

Yes theres a little bit of pain around but not that much really, in my opinion things can get so much worse. Remember banks failing is just a beginning.

Pain is %10 unemployment. Pain is people losing their houses (yes that is happening in USA - but not here)
Pain is mortgage interest rates in the high teens.

Yes I'm a bit depressing sorry. But as Thomas Hardy says "I'm not a pessimist - I'm a realist"
[quote]
Yes people may be feeling it, but just compare it to the Great Depression, which was far worse in comparison.

For instance during the Great Depression, three lots of banking panics ensured which took down loads of banks, including one of the largest in the country, "The Bank of the United States" causing a deep moral blow to the people.

According to Freidman roughly 10,000 out of 25,000 banks disappeared through those four years by failure, merger or liquidation

And it should be realized that banks have always been venerable to insolvency due to the Fractional Reserve Banking system, hence why the central bank was supposed to be a "lender of last resort"

But the major difference to back then to that of now is that the Fed is actually expanding the money supply rather than contracting it and is acting as a lender of last resort.

Where as in the case of the Great Depression it contracted the money supply by 1/3 and let the banks collapse not protecting the banks, causing even greater damage.

Conspiracy theories aside, which are mostly sophistry written by amatures, it was performing conflicting strategies due to trying to prevent gold being sucked out of the system to foreign countries, i.e. it compromised its own domestic economy in the sake of retaining power. Hence the taffies to try and stop gold flowing out further which only made things worse as other countries installed their own tariffs in retaliation.

We are in a much better position now, but yet the value of the American dollar is going to remain weak and could go down further depending on how much more monetary interference is pursued.

It's not nice, but I don't think it will be as bad as the Great Depression
[quote]
peat said:
what I find a bit strange is quotes like the last line of that article

"It all adds up to one of the more painful moments in world economic history."

Yes theres a little bit of pain around but not that much really, in my opinion things can get so much worse. Remember banks failing is just a beginning.

Pain is %10 unemployment. Pain is people losing their houses (yes that is happening in USA - but not here)
Pain is mortgage interest rates in the high teens.


Nope. Pain is history - people who can't afford food and starve in their millions.
We have no idea how lucky we have it. Hardly anybody died in the Great Depression, even.
[quote]
interesting read in the paper this morning

FBI probe widens to 17 firms

with shades of our own blue chip fiasco

quote:
The officials described widespread opportunities for fraud in the industry, which can all be traced back to human greed, and to lax documentation in loan applications, which allowed for loans based on false values or income.
[quote]
Without the Fed's $30 billion, JPMorgan Chase couldn't have bought Bear Stearns without writing down its own mortgage holdings

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/17/news/companies/boyd_bear.fortune/index.htm

the USA's financial modus operandi is at the end of the day/world incredibly socialistic. It seems okay to privatise gains and socialise losses. USA taxpayers just inherited $30Bn of dodgey mortgages !



interestingly tho, BS did some massive puts (effectively hedging its own positions) on the mortgage market in January and almost made enough to cover the writedowns but this doesnt seem to have prevented bankruptcy.
[quote]
funny how charity flows one way when the rich are feeling it
[quote]
peat said:
[It seems okay to privatise gains and socialise losses.


That's exactly what I took away from this mess to.
[quote]
for those who follow the DOW notice how the effects of the interest rate reduction only lasted one trading day and then the next day its back down again.
I was pretty tempted to short it actually when it went up 400 pts the day before but the volatility of markets is a bit scary at the moment.
Gold and silver down a lot last night Crying or Very sad Sold some silver at the high levels tho.
[quote]
I watch the markets and have noticed that happening each time the fed announces a cut in the rates

and for one day I listen to some people get excited again about their prospects before they slip away the next day
[quote]
the mind boggling numbers in the hard copy edition article I read yesterday I cannot find online to link to alas
[quote]
so reassuring to read that our masters of the universe didn't really understand the mechanisms of what they were doing
[quote]
this was what I was looking for

quote:
When the Federal Reserve stepped in to save Bear Stearns, most people had no idea what was at stake, writes Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

We may never know for sure whether the Federal Reserve's rescue of Bear Stearns averted a seizure of the $516 trillion derivatives system, the ultimate Chernobyl for global finance.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/23/ccfed123.xml
[quote]
quote:
Investment bank Goldman Sachs estimates global credit losses stemming from market turmoil will reach US$1.2 trillion ($1.5 trillion), with Wall St companies bearing about $460 billion of that total.

US financial firms have reported writedowns of about US$120 billion, little over one quarter of the total Goldman estimates they will eventually suffer, suggesting there is much more pain to come before any respite.....

Westpac senior economist Doug Steel said Goldman Sachs' report was consistent with his bank's view. "We do think there is more bad news to come and these numbers would certainly back that up. We're certainly far from out of the woods yet."
[quote]
Night Rider said:
but here's one along the same lines

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10881318[/quote]

^

I think its a little unfair to equate this outcome to the "inevitable consequence of the laissez-faire philosophy" as the article above stipulates.

It's more appropriate to blame Laissez-faire in conjunction with the fractional reserve banking system, quantity theory of money, fiat currency, monetary policy.
[quote]
more pain in the US last few days with some really large mortgage lender goin under and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - two absolutely massive mortgage loan companies getting their share price hammered following questions re their liquidity.

Heres a quote from CNN which gives you some more of an idea what they are

CNN said:

The two companies are so-called government-sponsored enterprises, created by Congress in 1938 (Fannie) and 1970 (Freddie) to help more Americans buy houses.
Their mandate is to maintain a market for mortgages - buying loans from banks, repackaging them as bonds, and selling those securities to investors with a guarantee that they will be paid.
This makes lending more tempting for banks because Fannie and Freddie take on risks like missed payments, defaults and swings in interest rates.


so basically the sub-prime mortgage market isnt something thats developed this century at all - its a humoungous US govt backed subprime mess.
They own or guarantee $5 trillion worth of mortgages. Yes 5 trillion. who the hell can count that high?

But its US Govt backed right so it should be ok.
Uh huh. So whats the govt actually got to back it with exactly heheh. their word Wink
[quote]
More Detail about the bust

IndyMac , with assets of $32 billion and deposits of $19 billion is the fifth bank to fail this year.
IndyMac marks the largest collapse of an FDIC-insured institution since 1984, when Continental Illinois, which had $40 billion in assets, failed,

But you know what? In the US your deposits with FDIC insured banks such as IndyMac are insured up to 100,000. And you can have several accounts with this much in them and they are all insured. Awesome plan for the country that considers itself the bastion of capitalism eh?

About 95% of the $19 billion in deposits in the bank are insured.
[quote]
CNN said:

Treasury Secretary unveils increased credit line and plan for possible stock purchases of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac


I'm beginning to think Ben is bringing out the helicopter. the end of the USD is just beginning.
[quote]
yep, been reading these reports over the past few days

all I am thinking about is the lack of interest rate relief this will bring to homeowners regardless of how the RBNZ chooses to approach the next OCR review

the tax cuts in October will be a welcome break but for some it won't be enough

hopefully the tight labour market will help to pick up any slack that is created if people start losing their jobs because consumer spending is down, that could be our one saving grace
[quote]
peat said:
CNN said:

Treasury Secretary unveils increased credit line and plan for possible stock purchases of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac


I'm beginning to think Ben is bringing out the helicopter. the end of the USD is just beginning.


hasn't he already used the chopper at least a couple of times to prop us the big finance companies???

and this mornings gloom and doom readings in Daktari villas

quote:
a new report from the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) shows that, due to the collapse of the housing bubble, the vast majority of Americans have accumulated little or no wealth. This means that they will be almost completely reliant on Social Security and Medicare to support them in their retirement years.

The study, "The Impact of the Housing Crash on Family Wealth," analyzed the wealth holdings of families in all age cohorts in 2004 and projected the wealth of these families in 2009. The findings are presented by income quintile under three scenarios- real house prices remain at current levels, real house prices fall by an additional 10 percent, or real house prices fall by an additional 20 percent. In all three scenarios, the vast majority of these families will have little or no housing wealth in 2009.

"This extraordinary destruction of wealth will have tremendous implications for millions of families," said report co-author Dean Baker. "Coupled with a very low personal savings rate, this means that many people, especially those near retirement will only have Social Security and Medicare to rely on once they leave the workforce."

The report projects that if house prices stay the same through 2009, the median household headed by a person between the ages of 45 and 54, those in their prime earning years, will have 24.7 percent less wealth than did the median household in this age group in 2004. These households will have accumulated just $113,268 in net worth in 2009, barely $15,000 more than their counterparts in 1989, whose net worth totaled $97,600.

If real house prices fall 10 percent, the median household in the 45 to 54 cohort will see a 34.6 percent loss in wealth compared with the median in 2004 while families in the 18 to 34 cohort will lose of 67.6 percent. If prices fall by 20 percent, the most pessimistic scenario, families in the 55 to 64 cohort will experience a loss of 49.6 percent of their wealth compared to the same cohort in 2004.

This analysis should also prompt serious re-examination of policy proposals to cut Social Security and Medicare for near retirees. Baker commented, "policies that perhaps could have been justified at the peak of the housing bubble make much less sense now that tens of millions of near-retirees have just seen most of their wealth disappear."

In analyzing wealth holdings for these families, the authors used data from the Federal Reserve Board's 2004 Survey of Consumer Finance. The authors also used the S&P 500 and the Case-Shiller 20-City Composite Index to adjust for equity values and home price changes between 2004 and 2009.


can I have a "Nanny State fuck yeah"
[quote]
those people who are exiting the market now are causing house prices to depress, there is talk being bandied about that the slump will continue for at least the next 2 or 3 years

the problem that I can see happening further down the track is once that is over and the market starts to recover again those people who weren't so highly geared and were able to ride out this current slump will start to sell their properties as they begin to near or enter into retirement

the excess supply in the market could see any brief recovery in prices (and by extension, household wealth) quickly eroded through a second slump in house prices
[quote]
So is it premature to worry oneself about the security of little old AA- KiwiBank?
[quote]
OneHappy said:
So is it premature to worry oneself about the security of little old AA- KiwiBank?


Kiwibank is guaranteed by the Post Office

Post Office is guaranteed by the New Zealand Government

Australians Banks offer no guarantee on the deposits to their New Zealand customers

in the event that an Australian Bank collapses then Australians citizens become first secured creditors (I'm pretty sure that's how it rolls in Aussie but can't find a link to verify this)

I do remember reading an opinion piece a while ago which hypothesised that the failure of an Australian parent could potentially see NZ deposits transferred across the ditch in an attempt to cover any shortfall

so if money is transferred across and if legislation provides that the Aussie citizens with deposits in that institution will become first secured creditors and that same legislation does not apply to New Zealand then where does that leave us in that situation??? they could essentially take our money and leave us as the last in line with our hand out when it all goes wrong

personally, I would feel safer with my money in Kiwibank or Rabobank than any other at the moment
[quote]
peat said:
But you know what? In the US your deposits with FDIC insured banks such as IndyMac are insured up to 100,000. And you can have several accounts with this much in them and they are all insured. Awesome plan for the country that considers itself the bastion of capitalism eh?

In the UK it's £30k with any one institution, but I think they are looking at bumping it up to £50k or somethin. Seems like a sensible idea to me ;D

What has 'bastion of capitalism' got to do with it thou??
[quote]
All though its history America prides itself as the land of the free and a country of free enterprise where successful risk takers are rewarded. Indeed much could be said that its success over the last couple of hundred years is founded on that.
And yet what we are seeing now is a huge socialisation of that risk that protects the people who should be failing now. So the way I see it, capitalists - who would rail heartily about how clever they are when their risk-taking is correct and hence rewarded by the capitalist system - they are being bailed out by the government in what must rate as one of the most socialist acts anywhere in the world.
Effectively some risktakers are saved now by the taxpayers, whereas if they had succeeded the profits would have been retained in the private sector.

see this blog on the Financial Times where Willem Buiter argues it better than me
FT said:

Time for comrade Paulson to pull the plug on the Fannie and Freddie charade

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2008/07/time-for-comrade-paulson-the-pull-the-plug-on-the-fannie-and-freddie-charade/#more-279
[quote]
Totally agree peat - the fact that it's so blatant just astounds me.
THIS is why people should rail against US capitalism - because it genuinely has become "the wealthy elite have become the powerful and their wealth must be protected at all times". It goes well beyond intervention to smooth significant disruption...
[quote]
and to read of the disparity of economic wealth there go no further than this story

Huge inequalities exist in US society, report shows


quote:
The United States of America is becoming less united by the day.

A 30-year gap now exists in the average life expectancy between Mississippi, in the Deep South, and Connecticut, in prosperous New England.
[quote]
These arguments are timeless really... A lot of this fall out can be used to argue against Keynesian and Monetarist Economics and often is of course by the Austrians.

The Fed shoulders a lot of responsibility in this sub prime mess, especially Greenspan.... I have been saying this for ages now and even remember harping on in Snowflakes ear one night at Supper Club many months ago, about the Fed cutting the interest rates back in 2001 after 911, which eventually ended up at 1% causing excess liquidity in the market. Of course its more complex than this alone, given how debts can be collated and sold as equity bonds and hidden behind different names, then sold on again.

Parallels can be drawn to the stock market crash of 1929 with companies increasing their stock levels and lending on margin to make bigger returns. You add to this the fractional reserve banking system and well, the entire system seems subprime!

This taken from wikipedia sums up a little of Greenspans statements and the contraversy surrounding the mess.

quote:
In the wake of the subprime mortgage and credit crisis in 2007, Greenspan admitted that there was a bubble in the US housing market, warning in 2007 of "large double digit declines" in home values "larger than most people expect." However, Greenspan also noted, “I really didn't get it until very late in 2005 and 2006.”

Greenspan admitted that the housing bubble was “fundamentally engendered by the decline in real long-term interest rates”, though he also claims that long-term interest rates are beyond the control of central banks because "the market value of global long-term securities is approaching $100 trillion" and thus these and other asset markets are large enough that they "now swamp the resources of central banks."

Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Federal Open Market Committee voted to reduce the federal funds rate from 3.5% to 3.0%. Then, after the accounting scandals of 2002, the Fed dropped the federal funds rate from then current 1.25% to 1.00%. Greenspan acknowledged that this drop in rates would have the effect of leading to a surge in home sales and refinancing.

"Besides sustaining the demand for new construction, mortgage markets have also been a powerful stabilizing force over the past two years of economic distress by facilitating the extraction of some of the equity that homeowners have built up over the years."

However, Greenspan's policies of adjusting interest rates to historic lows contributed to a housing bubble in the US. The Federal Reserve acknowledges the connection between lower interest rates, higher home values, and the increased liquidity the higher home values bring to the overall economy.

"Like other asset prices, house prices are influenced by interest rates, and in some countries, the housing market is a key channel of monetary policy transmission." —Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, September 2005.

In a speech in February 2004, Greenspan suggested that more homeowners should consider taking out Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARMs) where the interest rate adjusts itself to the current interest in the market. The fed own funds rate was at an all-time-low of 1%. A few months after his recommendation, Greenspan began raising interest rate, in a series of rate hikes that would bring the funds rate to 5.25% about two years later. Hence, Greenspan's recommendation came at a time when interest rates bottomed out making it a particularly bad time to take out an ARM. A triggering factor in the 2007 subprime mortgage financial crisis is believed to be the many subprime ARMs that reset at much higher interest rates than what the borrower paid during the first few years of the mortgage.

In 2008, Greenspan expressed great frustration that his 23 February 2004 speech was used to criticize him on ARMs and the subprime mortgage crisis, and stated that he had made countervailing comments eight days after it that praised traditional fixed-rate mortgages.

In that speech on February 23, 2004, Greenspan had suggested that lenders should offer to home purchasers a greater variety of "mortgage product alternatives" other than traditional fixed-rate mortgages. Greenspan also praised the rise of the subprime mortgage industry and the tools with which it uses to assess credit-worthiness in an April 2005 speech:

"Innovation has brought about a multitude of new products, such as subprime loans and niche credit programs for immigrants. Such developments are representative of the market responses that have driven the financial services industry throughout the history of our country … With these advances in technology, lenders have taken advantage of credit-scoring models and other techniques for efficiently extending credit to a broader spectrum of consumers. … Where once more-marginal applicants would simply have been denied credit, lenders are now able to quite efficiently judge the risk posed by individual applicants and to price that risk appropriately. These improvements have led to rapid growth in subprime mortgage lending; indeed, today subprime mortgages account for roughly 10 percent of the number of all mortgages outstanding, up from just 1 or 2 percent in the early 1990s."

The subprime mortgage industry collapsed in March 2007, with many of the largest lenders filing for bankruptcy protection in the face of spiraling foreclosure rates. For these reasons, Greenspan has been criticized for his role in the rise of the housing bubble and the subsequent problems in the mortgage industry,as well as "engineering" the housing bubble itself:
[quote]
peat said:
Effectively some risktakers are saved now by the taxpayers, whereas if they had succeeded the profits would have been retained in the private sector.


So save your money in a bank and you are a ‘risk taking capitalist’ now??


I mean I’m as jealous of the mansions and superyachts as the next guy, but these people dreaming of the whole system tumbling down don’t seem to realise just exactly who it is that will end up absolutely crushed by it.

The rich didn’t get rich by being stupid - they will excel in most economic conditions, whether it’s owning multinational companies, operating some criminal organisation, swapping potatoes for bananas, sucking up to the king, ‘working for the party’, whatever.

I couldn’t care less what happens to these failing banks, but I think it’s a great that the fruits of Joe Boggs 50 years of labour are guaranteed to him by the government.
[quote]
i meant more the share holders of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac rather than the depositors of cash in FDIC insured banks Trapper.
The insurance of bank deposits does has its benefits as you argue, but I'm still uncertain about the moral hazard such guarantees create. Take NZ where we have no such backup from our govt - its not that hard to find a safe almost risk free bank to put cash in. Or a govt bond. As far as can be considered there is no risk. I'm not so familiar with USA private banking operations to say whether one could say the same, but
why should taxpayers assume anybodys risk ? Put in place measures to verify banks financial status, make these public and let everybody take their chances. Thats capitalism for ya!
At least in the case of bank deposits it can be quantified and acknowledged as a social policy (dont forget tho a policy that supports well off people - I mean who else has a 100k cash) but the case of effectively subsidizing JP Chase Morgan (who are very 'in' with the US govt) to take over Bear Stearns (and guaranteeing the most toxic loans in its portfolio) and now the Fannie and Freddie guarantees - these are an open unquantifiable risk that the US taxpayer has now assumed.

Stealing from the (mainly) poor to give to the rich!!
[quote]
garethw said:
Totally agree peat - the fact that it's so blatant just astounds me.
THIS is why people should rail against US capitalism - because it genuinely has become "the wealthy elite have become the powerful and their wealth must be protected at all times". It goes well beyond intervention to smooth significant disruption...


It's not protection of the wealthy elite. It's protection of the ordinary people. The wealthy elite have already made their money in bonuses they received during the boom. It's the average joe that gets caught in the meltdown along with those of the wealthy elite holding equity in the financial institutions.

The two classes of people that would be hammered without government intervention are financial institution deposit holders and company employees (yes, this does include some "elite" management.

Shareholders can be classed as wealthy elite, but they aren't really being bailed out - they're losing their shirts.

It's definitely a socialisation of risk, but bailing out banks is protecting the financial system and deposit holders in particular.
[quote]
Hanover today.... see the news. half a billion gone - at least its gone for quite some time even if not forever.

I've posted before that the tentacles keep spreading and you never know where they hit next. I also took a photo of their offices in August last year and called it Hanover Hangman.
[quote]
hanover lol

42 million dividend to two shareholders and 30 million dollar Parasite Drive house and 18 million dollar Waiheke farm

what did Keynes say?

“Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all?”

seems to be coming true
[quote]
quote:
Within hours of receiving complaints yesterday, the Commerce Commission took the unusual step of announcing an investigation into whether Hanover Finance had misled its investors and the public....

Conviction for misleading conduct can result in fines to a maximum $60,000 for individuals, or $200,000 for companies.


whoo that'd hurt
[quote]
Night Rider said:
what did Keynes say?

“Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all?”

seems to be coming true


It has always been true for portions of capitalist society and it quite possibly 'always' will be true. Overall however Adam Smiths "invisible hand" still seems an apt description of the division of labour and of people pursuing their own separate self interests, having greater benefits on society without those performing the actions realizing it.

I feel perspective is required here....

Just remember amongst his General Theory, Keynes also said the following:

quote:
For my own part, I believe that there is social and psychological justification for significant inequalities of incomes and wealth, but not for such large disparities as exist to-day. There are valuable human activities which require the motive of money-making and the environment of private wealth-ownership for their full fruition. Moreover, dangerous human proclivities can be canalised into comparatively harmless channels by the existence of opportunities for money-making and private wealth, which, if they cannot be satisfied in this way, may find their outlet in cruelty, the reckless pursuit of personal power and authority, and other forms of self-aggrandisement. It is better that a man should tyrannise over his bank balance than over his fellow-citizens; and whilst the former is sometimes denounced as being but a means to the latter, sometimes at least it is an alternative. But it is not necessary for the stimulation of these activities and the satisfaction of these proclivities that the game should be played for such high stakes as at present. Much lower stakes will serve the purpose equally well, as soon as the players are accustomed to them. The task of transmuting human nature must not be confused with the task of managing it. Though in the ideal commonwealth men may have been taught or inspired or bred to take no interest in the stakes, it may still be wise and prudent statesmanship to allow the game to be played, subject to rules and limitations, so long as the average man, or even a significant section of the community, is in fact strongly addicted to the money-making passion.
[quote]
Night Rider said:

“Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all?”

but due to the positive contributions its still a necessary evil. someone has to take risk for there to be progress. the problem seems to be that the financial innovators are always smarter than the regulators with whom society entrusts to minimize the nastier players.
I'm thinking USA Trust Laws were well behind the monopolies rise to power. Corporate governance became fashionable only after Enron.
And insider trader laws in NZ which werent enacted until after the 1987 crash. refer (http://www.waikato.ac.nz/law/wlr/1994/article5-fitzsimons.html)

History seems to be too full of horses bolting.
[quote]
is this the link peat?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/nz/journals/WkoLRev/1995/6.html

would appear that things were under way before events overtook them

today's news is that the directors of hanover are considering injecting their own money to prop it up

but

quote:
Investment industry figures who are sick of seeing retail investors duped have made up their minds.

They believe Watson and Hotchin should either put up - to the tune of $100 million or more - or shut up.

Most believe the pair, with their Hanover-funded property empire in tatters, don't have the cash and should make way for the receivers.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10523585
[quote]
yes that is a more specific link NR.

I remember that it was common knowledge in the industry that insider trading was merely unethical, but not actually illegal.
Rumours and whispers were valuable tools. There was no internet remember... information moved a lot slower which was of course an advantage to those with the contacts.
[quote]
yeh that is a much praised article... gaynor writes a lot of good stuff.
[quote]
I haven't visited Biggie for ages -- I see Night Rider is still banging on with all his Lefty crap.

It really must make you insanely angry every time the NBR Rich List comes and and we see that under Labour, as the middle class get poorer and the poor stay in Shitsville, the rich are having a wonderful time.

But wait, isn't one of your working class mates the richest person in NZ? -- he must have slipped through the net before he could be molded and indoctrinated by some bitter little nobody Unionist during when he was working as a panel beater all those years ago.

You see Night Rider, most workers don't want to live in your Communist paradise. They too, want to be successful and wealthy -- man that must really piss you off!
[quote]
Shocked Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing

I think you must have me confused with someone else

perhaps fish boy?
[quote]
but if it's communist to be scathing of spivs and wide boys then I'll gladly handle that jandal

awae wi' ye laddie
[quote]
Night Rider said:
you're right about that burning it call, I've got a diesel heater and at 1.33/ liter it's a judgment call as to which is more heat producing the money or the oil



Laughing Laughing please bring back the 1.33/litre call

I won't complain again pwomiss
[quote]
^ Oh yeah, LOL.

It was Fish Boy -- it's been a while since I last visited.

Damn, I was deliberately trolling in my previous post just to agitate him Mr. Green

I do agree with you about guys like Eric Watson and Mark Hotchin.

Watson has always irritated me, he has all the charm of a used car salesman. The flashy suits and expensive homes never quite hide every trace of his humble roots. Like so many rags-to-riches guys, he is in awe of his own wealth. Mark Hotchin's new mansion will forever stand as a monument to one man's out-of-control ego and rampant materialism.
[quote]
that chrisco guy is selling his 30 million dollar monument to his ego after only 2 years' occupancy to go live in seedy knee

at least NZ's 6 billion dollar man is staying put and I don't begrudge him his wealth - he's stuck his neck out and seen value where others didn't and built his empire on honest graft by comaprison with the blue shits and bridgecorpses of this world
[quote]
hrm

there's a number of people who are closish to said person who are less forgiving of his behaviour in this and other ventures.
[quote]
I'm sure he has his detractors
[quote]
quote:
The scariest news of the week comes from down-under, where the National Australia Bank (NAB) announced it would "slash a £400m bond sale by two thirds. The retreat comes days after the Melbourne lender shocked the markets by announcing a 90pc write-down on its £550m holdings of US mortgage debt, an admission that it AAA-rated securities are virtually worthless....The decision by National Australia Bank to make drastic provisions on its US mortgage debt could have ramifications in the US itself. It opted for a 100pc write-off on a clutch of "senior strips" of collateralized debt obligations (CDO) worth £450m - even though they were all rated AAA. (Ambrose Evans Pritchard, "Australia faces worse crisis than America", UK Telegraph)

This is a huge story with grave implications for America's struggling banking system. No wonder the establishment media is avoiding it like the plague. If AAA rated CDOs are worthless, then some of the biggest financial institutions in the country will be packed off to the boneyard feet-first.


The original article appeared in the Business Spectator and was titled "NAB will shock Wall Street", by Robert Gottliebsen. "Shock" is an understatement. This is more like a meat cleaver crashing down on a butcher block. Schwook! This is a must-read for anyone who is following the meltdown in the financial markets. Here is an extended excerpt from Gottliebsen's article:

"The National Australia Bank's decision to write off 90 per cent of its US conduit loans will have dramatic repercussions around the world. Wall Street will be deeply shocked when they understand the repercussions of what NAB has done. It is clear global banks have nowhere near provided for their exposures to US housing loans which in the words of John Stewart are experiencing a “meltdown”.

We are now way beyond sub-prime. NAB says that it is suffering a 55 per cent loss on American housing loans – an event that has never happened in the history of a developed country in recent memory. This is an unprecedented event and means that the cost of bailing out the US financial system is now far beyond the highest estimates. A US recession is now locked in, but more alarmingly, 55 per cent loan losses point to the possibility of a depression.
[quote]
So NZ house prices were down 5% from June to July.

Scary stuff. It's starting.
[quote]
quote:
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has seized control of troubled mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, aiming to stabilize the housing market turmoil that is threatening financial markets and the overall economy.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is betting that providing fresh capital to the two firms will eventually lead to lower mortgage rates, spur homebuying demand and slow the plunge in home prices that has ravaged many areas of the country.


www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10531044
[quote]
What a mess
[quote]
keeps the printing presses busy.... and the helicopter flying

but yeh its scary stuff , time to start buying swiss francs again pretty soon I think the USD rally is over anytime.
[quote]
I have to admit, this event has made me more economically conservative. I never thought I would end up drifting out more, from my comfortable position on the political center/right.

This entire thing was caused by the banking system and this kind of cyclic mayhem will continue unabated, until Governments and Central Banks get more serious about 'monetary policy' and rethink the rules surrounding the banking and financial sectors.

Places worthy of reform:

Fractional Reserve Banking
Interest Rates (being set well below the market level)
Fiscal policies that increase the money supply using large scale deficits without raising taxes.

And if were talking about needing fiscal policies to fund wars, I recommend people read Keynes pamphlet "How to Pay for the War" which inter alia argued war should be largely financed by higher taxation, rather than deficit spending, in order to avoid inflation. He also proposed using deferred payment strategies and bonds to fund it. Interestingly Friedrich Hayek praised Keynes’s anti-inflationary pamphlet.

I wonder how popular supporting war would be then, especially considering everyone would notice an immediate effect on their wallets.
[quote]
Rival said:
Interest Rates (being set well below the market level)


I don’t know too much about all this economic hocus pocus but it seems to me there is a serious flaw with this part of the system…

Here in the UK we have inflation already running at twice the ‘target’ - hell it’s even approaching the BOE base rate! The £ is worthless, and there is plenty of scope to increase interest rates to fix it; boosting the £, reducing consumer spending, reducing inflation. And what are the banks and government talking about? Well they want to lower interest rates to take pressure off the housing market!?

It seems that so many voters are caught up in massive debt that the government has to ditch its fundamental economic principles to save them. At the expense of everyone not in debt…


If you think about it no-one ever really ‘pays off’ their home loan. We generally just wait 30 years until it inflates away to nothing. Something not right here… shouldn’t the inflation target be zero?? ie - you pay back what you borrow + interest, who would have though!
[quote]
Essentially economics as a subject can be warped and manipulated to support any number of different political views and associated polices. All of which have their own different pros and cons whether by action or inaction, and I think a lot of it comes down to what you think is an acceptable trade off when supporting any policy.

And I agree that the target of inflation should be low because of the problems it causes, which are actually quite subtle and effective at creating disturbances within the economy, especially when prices are rising faster than wages.

Essentially it comes down to those who think some mild inflation is okay and an acceptable trade off for having low unemployment. To those who believe there is a natural rate of unemployment and to go under it by increasing the money supply or using tax cuts or expenditure, causes inflation and undermines economic integrity..

In Keynes General Theory he was set on eliminating 'involuntary unemployment' and he believed that while there was such unemployment, increasing the money supply would not be inflationary.

I present you with this direct quote:

quote:
It follows that an increase in the quantity of money will have no effect whatever on prices, so long as there is any unemployment, and that employment will increase in exact proportion to any increase in effective demand brought about by the increase in the quantity of money; whilst as soon as full employment is reached, it will thenceforward be the wage-unit and prices which will increase in exact proportion to the increase in effective demand.
(Keynes 1936, p. 185)

But I think most of us can accept that this is now wrong, and its more likely the monetarist were correct when they stated: "the first effects of changes in money growth are on output; later, the rate of inflation changes."

In fact most Monetarists would disagree with the policies you are describing Trapper, because of how they effect prices.

According to Milton Friedman.

quote:
Prices perform three functions in organizing economic activity: first, they transmit information; second they provide an incentive to adopt those methods of production that are least costly and thereby use available resources for the most highly valued purposes: third, they determine who gets how much of the product-the distribution of income. These three functions are closely interrelated.

Prices represent a very important signaling mechanism to help resources go to where they are most valued, not to mention they send a signal for producers to increase supplies and/or consumers to reduce demand.

When we manipulate the money supply with low interest rates, we effect prices and muddle their reliability indicators of shortages, surpluses, or consumer preferences.


The more I study it the more I am amazed.

Reference:

John Maynard Keynes “The General Theory of Employment Interest and Money” New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1936.
[quote]
the problem with a little bit of inflation (to achieve good) is that it quickly becomes a little bit more and a little bit more....

just a quick comment here that one of my favourite financial bloggers has a very praiseworthy article about the FMae and FMac govt takeover. He says how corrupt they were as organisations and that at least now they can be seen for what they are see 'better late than never " link below.

But also amazingly his last article talks about the purity and quality of NZ's govt accounting !! now thats awesome

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/
[quote]
Big Hits! Massive volatility!
The Dow down over 500 points last night.

Lehman - once Americas fourth biggest investment bank filing for bankruptcy

Merrill Lynch - the third largest in the securities industry taken over by Bank of America

AIG - the worlds largest insurance company huge in both life insurance and retirement planning and one of the components of the Dow Jones Index is struggling to stay afloat after losing 18 billion in the sub-prime fiasco. Its share price is now at $5 after being over $70 within the last year.

And poor old GM , begging the US Govt for a 50 bil injection to modify its plants to make more fuel efficient cars. Analysts expect GM to lose $10.2 billion this year and another $5.1 billion in 2009.

We are truly in a meltdown!
[quote]
peat said:
Big Hits! Massive volatility!
The Dow down over 500 points last night.

Not even looking at what the local market's doing. Literally yesterday I was looking at my stock positions and thinking about liquidating... Not sure I want to know now.

Is still pretty amazing how these deals have been brokered by the US Treasury rather than as true arms-length value-buys in the market. Take THAT neo-classicals Laughing
[quote]
i think i said long ago that one should have a clearly defined exit strategy gareth. Probably too late to capitulate now depending on what the stocks are of course. I use a pattern called a gartley as a buy signal and I am starting to see stocks such asFPA approach that.
Widespread capitulation on stockmarkets is a sign the bear is going into hibernation.
[quote]
markets seem to be reacting a lot today (possible huge understatement)

liked this explanation of the whole affair in the herald

http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/liam-dann-business-editor/2008/9/18/why-dont-they-just-print-more-money/?c_id=3&objectid=10532862
[quote]
Epic lulz

Aussie stock market just had $38 Billion go *poof*
[quote]
yeh that was pretty funny bob_d I thought of attn'ng that article to missjess...

Dow up last night as the Feds and other central banks pump 180 billion into the markets.

Hyperinflation anyone?
[quote]
I think they should let the market clear, and if anything aim any helicopter money at the people who loose their homes et al. as a consequence.

Its just going to make things worse, devalue the dollar and create excess liquidity, which is what caused this problem in the first place.
[quote]
Although philosphically I agree rival I think the issue of systemic risk does change things and that averting that is worthwhile
Eg do you think that NZ should have let the BNZ fail back years ago when it was rescued by the government, or Air NZ for that matter (tho that is slightly different - being a flag carrier airline)

So I am being convinced from what read that the Fed is doing a useful thing in the short term but I still suspect they are only delaying the pain.

I bought gold on Monday Very Happy biggest weekly profit ever!!!
[quote]
peat said:
Eg do you think that NZ should have let the BNZ fail back years ago when it was rescued by the government


To me it depends entirely on WHY the financial institute is in trouble in the first place and HOW it is managed by a central bank authority.

If for instance, such an entity has been a victim of purchasing subprime AAA CDO equity, I would agree with bailing them out, to minimize damage to the financial system.

If however such an entity is in trouble, due to bad management, shoddy accounting practices, over-lending et al. I believe the central bank should place the institute under statutory management, float the company, protect its clients who have mortgages and loans but essentially, force certain assets to be liquidated and the business sold to new owners at a significantly lower price.
[quote]
how could that sort of system be implimented Rival - I would imagine it could take months of work to decide which is the badly run banks and which are simply victims of bad decisions

I can see that its important to help these businesses stay aflaot as their closure would impact on thousands/millions of people but these problems they face are as much of their own making so something must be done to change the environment of stupidity that has lead tpo this situation - you have McCain talking about less regulation....

whatever happens its the little guy (tax payer) that gets to pay for the rich elites fuckup - that is so fucking wrong
[quote]
afaik it (the BNZ) was pretty similar (to the current USA situation ) in that they basically lent money to lots of those property investment companies such as Chase who then failed all in a big heap.

Its pretty common for banks to behave stupidly and loosen their lending standards during a golden era until they suddenly find themselves the owners of huge amounts of property which they dont want.
I have fiction book called Funny Money which is all about shoddly lending practices based on oil assets being constantly revalued higher during an earlier oil boom , kind of amusing
like this is amusing

http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&skipauth=true (see Russel Browns Hardnews if the link doesnt work

Philosopically I dont really get your distinction
Imo buying shoddy assets is as stupid as overlending and both should be punished by extinction - the only real reason for bailing someone out should be that they will bring down others with them and that will flow through etc...
[quote]
bob daktari said:
how could that sort of system be implimented Rival - I would imagine it could take months of work to decide which is the badly run banks and which are simply victims of bad decisions


What are you going on about? It already IS the system in operation in my countries, including ours.

All central banks have crisis management powers.

See B. PURPOSES OF BANK REGISTRATION AND SUPERVISION 7:

Reference:

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/finstab/banking/regulation/3272066.pdf