If Labour/Greens get in, I'm moving overseas

Possibly. Obviously there are parts to each that differ but the key in being able to build a strong team around you and the interchangable skills would give you a good shot at both.

A CEO isn't the only person leading a company. He compliments himself with a team of people who have skills where he lacks. As a prime minister you have the skills to bring together people in a strong cabinet. To me the leader of the party is the glue as opposed to the be all and end all. And in that the two roles are very similiar.

Can I just say that the speech from Roger Douglas was fuking scary and I hope like fuk Key has the good sense to keep him on a very tight leash.

That is not how you address the economy on election night or any other night for that matter.

they're centre-right. hardly anything other than moderate.

Congrats to National and its supporters.


Looks like there will be a few years of conservatism now huh.
I dont feel its a subjective statement when I say that NZ history only gets interesting when theres a Labour governmemt, the rest of the time is just wasted space.

Centre-right compared to who?

If you put say, Rogernomics ala 1987 on the right hand side, and socialism of the Soviet variety on the left, Key would be almost right over to the right.

How long do you reckon it will be before people in the National Party gang up on Key and stab him in the back for their own gain? Will he last out his term?

depends how wily an operator he is but I reckon he has to get ruthless with the old guard and build coalitions with the new

9 yrs

Nah, they won't make a second term. The economic situation will get worse (even though NZ has no control over it) and people will want to go back next time. Remember, people are stupid.

so the dreaded spectre of a National/Act government has come to pass

I don't think people have any idea what is to come to pass, although it will most certainly be left until after xmas

I missed that speech

what was the gist?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/Politics/tabid/370/articleID/79015/cat/67/Default.aspx#video

add to that: worker's rights stripped back, unions emasculated, return to employment contracts model

more "user pays," privatisation of state assets


we know cos we've been there before!

Waking up to the reality of a national govt is going to be depressing as fuck

thats about all i can manage at the moment.

I think another significant thing was the small proportion of votes the smaller parties received, only the Greens made the 5% threshold. Meaning that if not for strategic vote splitting Act, United Future, the Progressives and even the Maori Party wouldn't be there (although lets face it the Maori Party were never in danger of not winning some of thre Maori seats). Not sure on the stats but I think this must be the lowest proportion of votes for the smaller parties since MMP began in NZ. Haven't done the math but if Act and United Future didn't make it National may have been in a position to govern alone (didn't mention or Progressives or Maori as they are unlikely to go into coalition with National).

I think the doom ad gloom predictions by lefties are a bit OTT to be honest, winning a fourth term is almost unprecidented so Labour were always going to struggle especially against a dynamic leader like Key (like him or hate him he has energised National). As after so long with Labour in charge often all it takes is an inspiring leader to bring about change. I'd be very surprised if it was a one term government too as even if they do an appalling job they can probably get away with blaming the previous government for the first three years. Plus I don't think Act will get anywhere near as much say as people are making out, at the end of the they are in the same position as the Greens have been. They are completely incompatible with Labour so National are not in any danger of losing their support thus they will not need to make too many concessions, probably a cabinet post for Hide and not much else.

Tell me what was so bad about that?

Jono, there is nothing stopping Key et al from acting out their TRUE desires now that they have a majority.

I expect to see an American-style fire-at-will model, the destruction of all public services, and a massive growth in wealth disparity

he speaks the truth and you scare too easily

Greens got 18% and 19% in AKL Central and Wellington Central. At least some of us are still sane

That's AWESOME.

I was really hoping that by voting green I had made a difference, I hadn't seen the final stat for my electorate so it good to see how well they did here

anyone else find it a lil ironic that so many city dwellers seem to vote green? the people who tend to live in the LEAST sustainable way...

i guess it could be a guilty conscience vote?

People who live in town tend to have less carbon footprint.

and who says most farmers live in a sustainable way?

they just happen to live in the country - doesn't mean they're green

but they are offsetting the city dwellers carbon.

If you had everyone growing their own crops in their own patches it would be chaos and there would be no land free. Farmers grow stuff efficiently and city dwellers do city dwelling stuff efficiently.

And the burbs keep sprawling.

He came across very extreme. I don't like his attitude at all. Close to offensive behaviour/talk actually for me. I couldn't give a shit what he's achieved in the past. Give the man a kennel.

Key on the other hand I think I can grow to like.

simplistic as hell analysis mate

- raising large herds of certain types of stock increases carbon emissions significantly - that is well-known - thus "fart tax" etc

- farmers do NOT necessarily grow stuff efficiently from an environmental perspective- they rape the top-soil and artificially try to boost its potency year in and year out with fertilisers

- use of toxic sprays to maximise yield has negative impacts on the environment

most farmers and orchardists in NZ are not implementing farming and growing practices in an environmentally sustainable way

they are implementing practices to maximise yield and profit

also interesting about akl central, if i heard right last night, that's the first time it's ever gone to national.



note how mint yesterdays weather was? and how rubbish todays is in comparison? that's what you fuckin get under a national regime!!!!!!

like CBD dwellers who live in a tiny place, stacked with lots of other people in a small space, not owning a car, walking to the supermarket etc....?

Gosh fish_boy, a party at your house must be fun. I can hardly imagine anything more enjoyable than spending time a bunch of lefties with major chips on their shoulders, whining about how the greedy 'rich' people exploit the workers (and the unemployed).

But they dont own a lawn Kris, they CANT be green!

Hmm, short term memory eh?

...this wouldn't be the same Roger Douglas who formed part of the fourth Labour government in which Helen Clark, as health minister, closed down numerous clinics by any chance is it?

Oh my bad, we all know what a wall flower Helen is, they probably bullied her into doing it. Yeah right.

That's complete rubbish.

There are many types of leaders or leadership styles with different abilities or techniques presented in each case. Some of which will not work well at all in certain applications.

Leadership qualities are not universal.

What has Helen Clark closing down clinics got to do with it? Such a simple view CLOSING SOMETHING MUST BE BAD!

3. Argue that the nation's health system isnt VASTLY more successful than a decade ago.

cullen's resigned now too

Well it isn't much more successful ...but it was better and it cost the country one hell of a lot less. But it is typical of you Lefties to just recklessly throw other people's money at a problem.

It was bad.

But that was Helen Clark 20 years ago.

We ALL make mistakes when we're young.

Other people's? Without a state, nobody could make money

Read some Hobbes you fucking imbecile

Bloody useless prick. A minister of finance who doesn't like rich people, no wonder so many millionaires have left New Zealand.

Het jerk, I never said we shouldn't have a state.

Of course - this isnt a thread about farming. My point is that 2 commercial farms supplying food to 200 people who live in apartments and do office jobs is better (efficient, environmentally friendly, higher quality, less time spent) than 200 people trying to achieve the same output using the same methods but in their own blocks.

Having an equal number of animals in Large herds isnt any more gaseous than having them in smaller herds?

Separate issue, home gardeners use fertiliser and sprays but on a smaller scale... but closer to humans and other land use.

Yes profit is a goal as opposed to doing it for fun. Supermarkets could be blamed for reduced margins if you like but ultimately its the consumers buying from said practices that are the issue.

The yield issue is my point. Is it better to have intensive farming and intensive national parks/ residential than mix it all up into family sized blocks? The higher the yield from the land IN THE LONG TERM the better for the environment and people it is.

Of course this is a simplification - drag up the farming thread from 3 months ago if you want to get back into it.

Seriously, stop digging the hole!

Andrew, you are clearly a smart guy but you really need to give others the courtesy of not assuming they are complete morons.

The only "out" you had there was to argue that medicine and the investment in technology, specifically information technology, has been the reason for the vast improvements, yet you want to sit there and say it isn't much more successful?

HYUCK, WHERES MAAA SHUUUVEEEEL?

Pretty sure we were fucked pre-Douglas...

Stop taking mornonic inflammatory stabs at people and i'd leave you alone.

Your comments show you have a popularist view of politics, policicians and policies rather than reading up on what's good for the country and basing it on global experience.

Well... fuck.
I'm not someone THAT concerned about a massive right-wing shift (although having a cabinet of Ryall, Hide, Collins et al is an awful sight to behold) because, hopefully, we've just taken a step sideways.
Unfortunately for me and the things I consider important, it's also a step backwards - actively encouraging a savings and innovation culture, presenting an "above-our-weight" face internationally (seriously, John Key is going to be the guy who meets Obama on behalf of us?) and cleverly transitioning to a costed-carbon economy. I don't think anyone was doing a great job on those, but National and ACT are going to take us backwards on those measures.

My enduring hope is that Key seriously is in charge and modernises that party; as opposed to the equally possible alternative that he was the "face" - the last remaining piece of the jigsaw by National strategists to get them elected.

By the way - you all realise now that if you are falsely charged with something now, found to be completely innocent, you'll still have your DNA stored in the central police database, right? Just for being charged - not found guilty. Yikes.


Clark and Cullen both gone is pretty huge. For your second term, I thank you both. I really really do.

I never had much liking for Cullen, bloody smarmy prick at the best of times.

In a way, I think this election defeat is the best thing that could have happened to Labour, they were losing their way, becoming too complacent, this defeat will cause a shake up amongst their ranks and they'll prune the dead branches and let some of their gifted younger members step up. I'd be happy with Goff and Carter leading the Labour party. That would be a dynamic leadership and a strong adversary of the newly rejuvenated National party.

I would have loved to have seen Labour stay in power but hopefully this will help them, and us, in the long run...

Labour's idea of running the health system was the good old Socialist trick of 'dazzling' the ignorant masses with grandiose gestures. Real progress is not as important as the illusion of grand schemes. The case in point is the new Auckland hospital: a band new flash building that has less beds than the hospitals it replaced. Administration has ballooned, (a clear example of the Socialist love of bureaucracy) and staff at Auckland hospital have continually complained about lack of resources, and yet whenever David Cunliffe (and formerly Anette King and Pete Hodgson) where questioned about the state of health, all we ever heard was how much money they had poured into it.

Oh, and could the National Party PR team please learn that having an audience at Sky City that was ENTIRELY well-dressed, middle-aged Parnell white people is exactly the look you're meant to be trying to shed...

Why would that bother you? Means you can be conclusively ruled out of anything in the future. Helps the police do their job.

As much as I dislike Cullen, I'll agree with this too. One of the finest terms we've ever had. They'll talk about this alongside Savage, Kirk and co in the future...

health is a black hole for any government timj

this National government will be no exception

Well what is wrong with being a wel-dressed white person exacltly -- for fucks sake, what kind of fucking BS is that.

I put the actual DNA-database piece to one side on that - it's about the continuing eroding of the innocent-until-proven-otherwise we seem to have in the populist side of the country.
If you want to keep the DNA of innocent people, do it for all, not just those that have been tested and found innocent by our justice system.

Oh sure ...don't get me wrong here, I don't think National is going to work miracles at all.

I'm also not Roger Douglas's biggest fan either by the way.

haven't all babies since 19xx had their dna taken and stored or is that an urban myth?

This has been a source of bewilderment for me also. The only conclusion i can draw is that they used their union chums to keep a lid on it.

Recently a friend of ours was very sick in north shore hospital, his self administered morphine pump ran out (he wasn't over using it) and he started to get in severe pain. He kept pressing the buzzer until he finally gave up and called his wife at home. She called the hospital and got them to send someone to help him.

what
the
fuck

garethw: There's no point in goign to the extra expense of testing everyone, there's also no point in discarding it once it's done...? I'd happily have my DNA profile stored in my drivers license 'cause I don't commit crimes that get me in a lot of shit

I'll respond to this (even though it should be fucken obvious) - the problem is that National has an image that those are the ONLY people they represent. And the party footage just backed up that view. You may have noticed the on the end there too if you dialled down the partisan talk-point aggression for a second.
On the whole, don't expect me to respond to your commentary though - we've been down this road before.

Mate, if you want to propose the DNA storage of innocent people for criminal matching, then go for it (I may not be voting for United Andrew though ) but I just have a real problem with doing it this way. It's sneaking it through the backdoor of a populist view that people that get charged are lesser citizens than those who aren't...

Look, truth is, I am much more moderate than my biggie alter ego, sometimes you need to be provocative to get a debate happening. Being civil is all good but it is nowhere near as interesting

Re health: where are the numbers on this? I'm all for improved outcomes per dollar, and the anecdotal stories (from National et al) are that it hasn't een getting better - but frankly given some of the crap the opposition was willing to throw I'd rather have it based on non-partisan analysis!
I'd also like to see the numbers so we can hold National to their promise to improve it (which I hope they do if it's as bas as they claim).

What? They have the same amount of experience (6 years), and if anything Key is more qualified to run a national economy than Obama.

Fair enough - but it's an approach that has prevailed this last year from the partisan right, and left. So you'll understand if I've got a bit over it and prefer to avoid it.

Any Vads post mentioning Obama gets this as my reply my now:

That's the impression I got as well and I stand by what I said if Roger Douglas has any influence on National policy we are in serious trouble. The man is a dangerous radical.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/4754721a28435.html

I tend to think Key knows his policies have no place in modern day New Zealand and will keep his influence to a bare minimum.

Ha is that McCain waving goodbye?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/4754721a28435.html

I find this somewhat amusing since Telecom is already building a 1.5 billion dollar ADSL 2+ broadband network as part of its undertakings with the commerce commission.

What do you think all those cabinets popping up across the country are Mr Key?

Maybe they plan to build another one right next to it which is virtually impossible and unsustainable with our current population.

Nope - that $1.5billion will, in practice, go straight to Telecom (Chorus). They're the only crowd in town that can build out, manage and service the proposed solution. Telecom's share price on Monday will be intriguing - they just got a big Govt subsidy...

Errr...wha??? Why does keeping your DNA make you a lesser citizen? Jeeeeeeeesus



Ok: Once upon a time there was a guy found dead in a garden, there had been a struggle.

There was a spade next to him that was the murder weapon. 2 OTHER DNA samples were found on it.

Both match previously collected samples from other cases, one was for an escaped murderer, the other was from a girl who was charged with blackmail and let off on a technicality.

You dont think you'd want to know how the girl was involved and where she was, and if she was involved or hurt?

Now, change her history to having been a girl who was tested at 16, and you could tell was a family member of the deceased...

They're little things that can actually put the police on the right track to finding out what really happened, saving time (therefore money) and lives.

There need not be any prejudice involved, it just helps ask the right questions and put the right amount of urgency on finding her.

It is still up to the court to decide if the evidence is admissible and/or relevant.

Thats not true, TelstraClear and Citylink are equally capable. Hell there's TelstraClear fibre outside my home right now, not Telecom.

The thing that intrigues me, there has been no talk about what gets layered over FTTP. TelstraClear could offer me FTTP right now (and light my whole apartment building) but they dont. And having personally paid to have the pavement dug up in town and fibre installed, i'm not about to pay THAT again, let alone the cost of the service once its in!

Would you prefer I said "citizen treated differently"? As for the rest of it, like I said, I'm putting any comment on pros/cons/worth to one side - you have to admit that keeping the DNA of people never convicted of a crime is a very very big step for NZ. I think if National stood up and said "we are going to keep the DNA of innocent people on file with the police" then they'd be a fair bit of national comment on it, yeah? But instead, it gets bundled under the "oh, they've been charged with a crime so it's obviously different" angle.

Telecom is already doing FTTP in a number of locations but its really not all it's cracked upto be.

You can get fibre to the premise sure but you also need a backbone to support the increased speeds and new services to run over the fibre.

Also if your putting everything including telephony over IP you need to consider what happens when the power goes out and how emergency services like 111 will be dealt with.

It's a massive job, logistical nightmare, I doubt National really know what they are committing too.

that's what I thought too

didn't exactly see people dancing for joy in the streets this morn, either

I won't drag it up at the THIS stage

YAY! & that is all I have to say about election 08

To me it's not whether someone's skills are transferable, it's more about who's interests they will represent. Business leaders will create policies in favour of big business with the idea that what is good for business is what's good for everyone. This is not always the case at all imo.