Helen Clark has cost NZ hundreds of millions of $ in trade.

Further to the Tariana Turia thread... lets debate this..

For all her bad hair-do's, teeth and witchy expressions Helen Clark has gone and done something much much worse to us... she has single handedly fucked up our short-term (perhaps 10 years) chances of closer trade agreements with the USA. To make it worse, we have been boned twice as Australia is sure of their trade deal meaning NZ exporters have to consider how to compete with the USA with exporting goods to Australia, the traditional largest buyer of NZ goods.

This alone has come off the back of her uninformed comments about President Bush and the war in Iraq..

Some comments on the topic (from NZ Herald)

"I don't think that September 11 under a Gore presidency would have had this consequence for Iraq. But I think in this Administration there were forces that always wanted to go after Iraq and September 11 tipped the balance." - Helen Clark, March 30

"It wouldn't be a novel observation to say that [the war] doesn't appear to be going to plan." - Helen Clark, March 31

The bottom line is that this Government doesn't trade the lives of young New Zealanders for a war it doesn't believe in, in order to secure some material advantage. - Helen Clark, March 31

What others said

"The Prime Minister's statement was regrettable." - US Embassy public affairs officer Bill Millman, April 1

"There's been some things done recently that would make [a free- trade agreement] harder to carry". - US Trade Representative Robert Zoellick, May 21

"This wouldn't be the high point of the campaign." - Trade Negotiations Minister Jim Sutton, May 22

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Labour can kiss my arse and sod off at the next elections

BH!
Rob W

I would have agreed with the three things she said though..

Er I mean the three quotes you have pasted above.

1. the things she said were correct

2. some things are more important than any amount of trade

and

3. i am more likely to vote labour now that she said that (but i won't because there are the greens)

thanks Helen.

I don't like Labour.
But I am quite impressed with Helen Clark.
I personally feel she has integrity.

The US respose to Helen Clark's comments has been extraordinary... It tells all intelligent people all they need know about the glittering unreality that surrounds the Bush imperium and his attendant courtiers.

Typical media beat up bullshit.

The real reason we won't get a free trade deal is that US farmers would block it, they are a very strong lobby group. The whole 'you need to suck the US's dick at every opportunity, like the aussies do, to get a free trade deal' talk is just the US trying to force us into doing what they want. Even if we had done that US farmers would still prevent the deal from ever going ahead. Read past the headlines and you'll see thats the case.

I'd rather have no trade with the US than have to be another state of the US, like Australia and the UK are...

jah has it right, the US will never agree to free trade with us when many of our prime industries can produce a better product at a far lower price.

Yep, jah and DaFlash are bang on. The US will always protect their own markets. They spout all this free trade crap all the time, buts its just bullshit.

Ahhh ha... biggie is full of Labour supporters.

BH!
Rob W

Then why are Australia getting a deal with them. Fom the looks of it they are getting an amazing deal actually... and we missed out because our PM, who can't even make it to the dentist, can't keep her harmfull (yet very possibly true) comments to herself.

BH!
Rob W

we were never going to get a free trade deal, JAH and harvey are right, if they wanted one they would ask for one. We shouldnt kowtow, suck bushes cock to try to get a free trade that wouldnt do that much for us anyway. Look what respect we got from france for our stand, probably similar respect we got from more countries for our stance than if we had signed on to the war for oil

easy rob,

Main aussie exports - coal, oil, gold, iron, aluminium

Main NZ exports - Wool, food and dairy products, wood and paper products

Note any differences. Now compare to what the US imports

main US imports

crude oil and refined petroleum products, machinery, automobiles, consumer goods, industrial raw materials, food and beverages

and its clear that a deal with aussie is far more use to the US.

I don't think 3 comments tipped the balance in terms of NZ getting a trade agreement with the US.

No doubt the fact we didn't kill any Iraqi's did make a difference. Still, she should keep her opinions to herself, she is the representative of a nation after all, not a talkback host.

Helen Clarke is an absolute idiot for this. Its fine to have principles and make statements about allies etc but if you make them at least stand by them and don't back down under pressure from Washington.

We haven't lost anything - we never had it to start with.

You are talking about something, that if we get, will take a few more years yet, even without Helen's comments.

Storm in a teacup.

Just stupid rich cunts like Craig Heatley jumping up and down.

I say good on her for dticking to her guns.
It's about time we had a leader/politician who looks like they are actually saying something than 'towing the line'.

As for keeping her opinions to herself, her opinions reflected a huge number of other NZers - that's why people vote for you - your opinions on a certain subject.
This was not some aloof opinion about liking one brand of softdrink over another - it's serious shit.

She quite rightly says that decisions for NZ should be made in Wellington, not Washington.

Thank god for that!

I don't agree with everything the Labour party does - who does?
We don't live in Utopia.


Kia Kaha - stand strong..

Respect to Helen Clark.

...although I thought her 'apology' was shite.

Im torn on this subject.

It was fucking knaive of her to make those obviously personal felt comments on behalf of our nation. And making the apology afterwards makes her look...well, do we really need to go into it.
Of course the US was gonna be completely pissed.

However on the other hand I think its obvious the US will never ever give us free trade. They dangle it like a carrot, all the while using NZ to spy with our electronic monitoring stations for them and forgetting all the wars we did fight with them including our soldiers who are still in Afghanistan.
For fucks sake they still havnt really given Australia free trade and theyve been bending over for them for 20 years.

Someone needs to stand up and call them out.

TonyCavallo Helen Clarke never stuck to her guns that's the part that makes her look like such an absolute dick. She backed down, explained herself and then apologised. Therefore her original statement was ill planned and damaging to US NZ relations. She has done her very best to piss the US off and this was on top of pulling out of the deal to lease fighter jets off them. Normally Helen Clarke is politically astute.

The article in today's herald was simplistic in the extreme. To think that issues as large as trade agreements with the world's only remaining superpower have *anything* at all to do with a handful of comparitively tame comments on the (illegal) invasion of iraq is simply misguided. The US has nothing to gain from a free trade agreement with NZ, and hence would never grant it. Sure, they may dangle the carrot a bit in the hope that we'll do an about face on the nuclear issue, but there was never any real possibility of a trade agreement that would be of real benfit to NZ. The only reason I can see for the recent comments from the US is to give Helen Clarks opponants some ammuntion to bring about a "regime change" in NZ to a government that would be more supportive to US interests.

Some things are not worth the money. If you want NZ to stay NZ and not become a further american state (look at the UK and OZ!), then keep away from america and american trade agreements. Look at their economy for heavens sake! do you really want to be part of that? It's heading for freefall! They're a country with the most amazing problem with violence, and have the largest prison communtily in the world, an adult literacy rate way lower than Iraq's was before Bush #1 started the invasion, and in some states now, they've regressed to teaching creationism and decry the theory of evolution as blasphemous nonsense.

I'm really proud of the fact that perhaps for the first time ever a New Zealand Government is thinking and acting for the country that has elected it to power and for once one that shares a similar view to myself.

Of course a free trade agreement would no doubt greatly benefit our economy.

The thing is New Zeland will get a free trade agreement with the US the day we have something the US needs!

The one thing the US will always do is look after itself. If we disagree on a matter such as Iraq it won't mean dick to the US Govt if we have something they NEED (simple economics). Until we do they will say whatever they want, and if it isn't exactly positive one can easily understand why, when we didn't support the US in the US lead coalition's invasion of Iraq.

We are not alone in our thoughts over Iraq, we are not alone in our stance on many issues and often we agree with our traditional allies. As Tony C says, its up to us to decide our future and the future is a long term thing. Lets not sell ourselves short for a few dollars.

load of bollox actually. we were nowhere near getting a trade deal.
the yanks despite all their talk about free trade are one of the worst when it comes down to it.
that's one of the reasons their economy is so strong they import way way less than they export.
total media beat-up in my opinion

Free Trade is not all positive -- essentially the US or who ever we have free Trade with can dictate what they export to Us -- also I agree with Helen Clarke's statements and the US have been looking for an excuse to decline Free Trade with NZ for AGES! <anyone see the 60 mins episode with the US farmers group ???> It is NOT Helen Clarkes 'fault' I'm sure if National were in the US would have found another reason to decline free trade. Look at NZ on the world scael -- we are NOTHING to a country such as the US until we start mining the Uranium that's deposited in the west Coast of the South Island. Once we start digging that up --then we'll be the US's 'best bud'

On the issue of a free trade deal i'd like to point out that the US has a free trade agreement with countries in south america. Chile or Argentina i admit i can't remember which, but the intersting fact is that neither of these countries have been gung-ho for fighting Iraq or spent decades pandering to every US demand, nor are they close US allies.
The sole reason they get a free trade deal is that it suits US interests, and untill a free trade deal between the US and NZ suits the US interests we won't get one.

One other aspect of free trade you can be sure would be important to the US is even more US corporate control in our country. Do we want that, hell no!!!!!!

Good on ya Helen thanks for not selling out to the cowboys.

seems like we might have something the us wants afterall....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2495621a6160,00.html

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Well yes, what kind of stupid world would we live in if major deals were made on such basis.

have we got uranium elro?

Traces have been found on the West Coast of the south Island-- but it would cause incredible decimation if they decided to start digging it up -- I remember reading about it in Social studies YEARS ago. I guess the reluctancy to 'dig it up' it goes hand in hand with NZ's whole anti nuclear stance.

Depends if the amounts are worth the investment to "dig it up" elro. Plus the environmental impacts would be huge. Not worth the loss of intrinsic value in my books.
As for Clarks comments, I support her 100%. Fuck the U.S, fuck Bush and fuck that geeky little runt Zoellick. JAH and harvey are correct. Also, you can look back a couple of years for another example of so called "free trade" involving steel products.
U.S steel manufactuers were up in arms about the US importing steel products under a free trade agreement with NZ, so the Clinton Adminstration killed it, or something along those lines (anyone feel free to correct me). So NZ went to the WTO and complained.
Anyway, even though the US market would have been profitable, we dont need them. What we should be doing is boosting our sales and exports to markets such as the EU (which are still scared of Mad Cow), Canada, and Asia (which includes China, with a population 3 times the size of US).
There are your important markets, kiddies.

I think D-man you have got 2 stories mixed up there. OUr trade debate with the US was over our lamb exports when the US slapped a big tarif on them and we took them to the WTO and won, though seeing the US's happiness to only use such bodies when it suits them i have no idea if they removed the tarif.
The steel thing was under the Bush admisitration where they put a large tarif on steel imports from Europe as US steel manufactureres were all complaining about it.
So i suppose that shows the true nature of the views the US has about free trade.

Ahhh my apologies Glange. But yeah, show how one sided the U.S likes to play.

yup - agree with what Helen Clark said all the way.

I think this is very similar to your typical 4th form dilemma.

Do you join the bullies club, talk like a tosser and act like a tosser and reap the benefits of being the head bully's puppet......or do you try to do the right thing and say no to the bullies even though you don't get to be part of the in-crowd.

At the end of the day if Helen Clark had done and said whatever it took to get us a free trade deal with the US, she'd be getting criticised for being spineless.

She can't please everyone, but I think she's a good prime minister.

virgo1, yes but the bully here is Saddam.

Helen decided that unless the 'bully' was directly threatening her then she would ignore him. Now this alone could be considered fair enough, she is our duly elected leader and can decide to ignore the bully if she so chooses. After all, even thou Saddam was a very bad guy he was not really our problem.

But then when someone else comes along and volunteers to deal with the bully the least she could have done was offer moral support even if not done publicly. But instead she did the exactly opposite, she publicly criticised the US and its leader. Not only letting herself down, but as our leader letting us all down.

Free trade is the communism of the new millennium. Nice idea in theory but will NEVER work in the real world. We will always look out for our own interests and own people before letting others have a slice of our pie, even if it means we can have a slice of someone elses.

Jono: as long as we consider ourselves people's of nations and not people's of the earth it will always be like that.

people need to realise that there's only one of us.