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[quote]
(So we don't flood the other thread)

Pechora - do you think it's plausible/sustainable (in terms of land use) for 'everyone' to eat free range? It is my impression that if all of a sudden everyone who eats meat wanted to make the switch that there just ain't enough room in this here little planet for the amount of meat that we consume as a global race.

Smile

gc.
[quote]
At the current rate of eating meat? Probably not - people would have to cut down on their meat consumption, but that should happen anyway, we eat entirely too much meat these days. That doesn't really change the ethical argument on an individual scale though anyway - there are better options right now, and you're never going to convert everyone anyway.
[quote]
to much meat? get the fuck out ...

Music
[quote]
*Re-Action* said:
to much meat? get the fuck out ...

Music


This!
Look at the shape of our teeth, they is for meat.
I dont agree with factory farming, it's just not right.
But even intensive "free" farming can create just as much drama.

Dunno what the solution is, Ill leave it to you more edumacated peoples.




Brutal.
[quote]
LeKnight said:
This! Look at the shape of our teeth, they is for meat.


Nobody is denying this though. I love meat - I'd never be a flat out vegetarian, but we're definitely consuming way more meat than we need to be - certainly more than at any other point in human history. We've got a whole world of delicious cheap meats thanks to the industralisation of food, meats which used to be unheard of delicacies even 50 years ago. There's no need for it really, and people don't seem to pay the slightest attention to the consequences (animal rights abuses, emissions from over-production of beef, cutting down massive areas of rainforest to make way for cattle farms, human health issues like the big breakouts of e.coli, etc etc)..
[quote]
All the negative side effects will be gone when we have meat that is grown in a lab.
[quote]
How timely. I was just given a pamphlet this morning on my way to work about the poor little pigs and I have sworn off eating them ever again.

mother pigs are confined to crates so small they can't turn around. the piglets endure the agony of having their teeth cut out and tails removed while the male piglets are castrated ALL WITHOUT PAIN RELIEF. alot of time they aren't 'tasered' correctly or whatever you call it and many pigs are dumped into the scalding hot water to remove their hair while they are STILL alive.

poor little piggies, they wag their tail when they get excited to see you?? like a puppy?

kind of knew all this I guess... but when confronted with the pictures....I will never eat Pork again.

who really wants to eat this anyway?



*waits for some idiot to say "mmm bacon"
[quote]
Look for "freedom farmed pork" sallymac Smile

It would do more good to the cause than just purely abstaining imo.
[quote]
Ok, I agree that the treatment of pigs in factories is bad but,
that statement about the scalding water is outright rubbish.

If you were to do this to the pig prior to its death it would stress the fuck out of the meat, making it taste horrible and it would become very tough.
Ive helped process many animals in my life, and that is just greenie propganda. Why would they even do this, it's much easier to do it to
a dead pig than a live one flapping around in hot water.
[quote]
PETA does not lie Le Knight. ;p

I have just discovered this brand of free range pork sold in the supermarkets here.

www.otwaypork.com.au

PHEW. I was thinking Sunday mornings would never be the same again...







[quote]
Im sure there might be a case of some sort of cruelty happening somewhere in the world. However that is not to say that it is common practice. For examples in NZ most pigs are not crated (though a significant amount still are).
[quote]
Assuming that we agree bob that factory-farming is a form of cruelty, then it is certainly the norm around the world. Also most pigs *are* still factory-farmed in NZ. Our beef and lamb are okay, but the pork is still pretty bad. The free-range industry is unfortunately still in its infancy really.
[quote]
I dont eat piggies! when i have bacon i have chicken bacon. I should become a jew...
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Yeah chicken bacon ... I mean they don't treat those chickens bad at all huh Neutral

Music
[quote]
Im desensitised to chicken pain. i used to live next to a chicken abattoir.
[quote]
Just* said:
Im desensitised to chicken pain. i used to live next to a chicken abattoir.


This was my first job.Mad
[quote]
Is that kinda like how I'm desensitised to child abuse 'cos my next door neighbour used to beat his kids Confused Confused
[quote]
bob said:
Im sure there might be a case of some sort of cruelty happening somewhere in the world. However that is not to say that it is common practice. For examples in NZ most pigs are not crated (though a significant amount still are).


Btw, just because you're not one to just take my word for it Razz

http://www.lovepigs.org.nz/Pigs-in-New-Zealand/?PHPSESSID=1854c5fa45180d7092f145b6930104d6

Sow stalls:
quote:
How many New Zealand pig farmers use dry sow stalls? 29 per cent. These are mostly large-scale producers responsible for the confinement of 45 per cent of sows (21,000 animals).


Farrowing crate:
quote:
How many New Zealand pig farmers use farrowing crates? 67 per cent.


So yup, it's still a majority problem.
[quote]
I care more about pig treatment as they're fucking intelligent animals, and mammals, compared to chickens...stupid, flightless, hopeless birds...care factor? Laughing

But currently we always buy free range eggs as the caging of them is wrong, plus the eggs are just nicer...should really start strictly buying free range chicken meat, too.
[quote]
I think the thing with free-rang chickens, for example, is we'll get to a point and they'll all be free-range.

And then they'll start telling us that chickens are individuals too and they'll push to have each one come with it's name on the packet and what it enjoyed doing.
[quote]
gummi_bear said:
Is that kinda like how I'm desensitised to child abuse 'cos my next door neighbour used to beat his kids Confused Confused


Yes.

Razz
[quote]
when it comes to food - if I have to be a scientist to read the label I will most likely put it down and find an alternative.
Not really anything to do with free range as such I guess but eating as food as close to its natural happy state as poss.
[quote]
Insanity said:
I care more about pig treatment as they're fucking intelligent animals, and mammals, compared to chickens...stupid, flightless, hopeless birds...care factor? Laughing

But currently we always buy free range eggs as the caging of them is wrong, plus the eggs are just nicer...should really start strictly buying free range chicken meat, too.


Hardly hopeless, my parents have two wild chickens living in their backyard that basically just forrage for food (insects,seeds etc) and are quite capable of warding off any cats that take an interest.
[quote]
RobW said:
I think the thing with free-rang chickens, for example, is we'll get to a point and they'll all be free-range.


Doubt it...Tegal alone kill an average of 130,000 chickens PER DAY...can you imagine the costs involved if ALL chickens ended up being free range? There's still Ingham and other smaller companies, too.

Free range is one thing, pumping them full of drugs and shortening the growth life cycle from infancy to culling age is worse imo...can't remember the exact ages, but saw a Doco on it and if a free range bird grows to 120 days before culling, the factory farmed ones were given like 45 days or something retarded...and the factory ones were practically twice the size of the free rangers due to the pumping of the food into them. Plus it effects their fat content, they broken down a bird and got all the fat out of it, pound for pound, they're fatter than beef! Chicken used to be a low fat/heathly meat, the factory farmed ones, not so much anymore
[quote]
Jono said:


Hardly hopeless, my parents have two wild chickens living in their backyard that basically just forrage for food (insects,seeds etc) and are quite capable of warding off any cats that take an interest.


Fully - the chook in our back yard chases the puppy around : )
[quote]
Jono said:
Hardly hopeless, my parents have two wild chickens living in their backyard that basically just forrage for food (insects,seeds etc) and are quite capable of warding off any cats that take an interest.


hehe, yeah, I know, just being mean...really though, I find it hard to have much compassion for a bird, compared to how I'll fell it for mammal.
[quote]
INSANITY!
[quote]
Egg layers suffer the most.
The farm I worked at pumped them so much with laying steroids so the chooks could lay more than one a day, it resulted
in the daily removal of chickens who blew their insides out. These were still alive, and part of my job was to remove them
and dump them in a big offal hole.
They would let them die in the hole!!

Chicken hatchery when I was a kid in Taranaki, used to kill the male birds thru suffocation.
This was achieved by putting them into plastic 44 gallon drums and screwing down the lid.
The "proper procedure" which was quoted whenever they were asked about it was chemical aspixiation (chloroform I believe),
but in reality, it was the weight of the chickens on top and the lid sealing off the air supply.

Chooks get the rough end of the stick, and mine are making up for it by tormenting me thru getting out of their pen and
shitting on my back door step.
[quote]
We dont really have enough land to free range everything and maintain the same amount of consumption. At some point we need to cut back... Not eating meat would be a much more efficient use of land for energy but im not ready to give it up just yet.
[quote]
By the way there are no steroids used in NZ chickens.
[quote]
Growth hormones =/= steroids?

LeKnight said:
Egg layers suffer the most.
The farm I worked at pumped them so much with laying steroids so the chooks could lay more than one a day, it resulted
in the daily removal of chickens who blew their insides out. These were still alive, and part of my job was to remove them
and dump them in a big offal hole.
They would let them die in the hole!!

Chicken hatchery when I was a kid in Taranaki, used to kill the male birds thru suffocation.
This was achieved by putting them into plastic 44 gallon drums and screwing down the lid.
The "proper procedure" which was quoted whenever they were asked about it was chemical aspixiation (chloroform I believe),
but in reality, it was the weight of the chickens on top and the lid sealing off the air supply.


Dude...that's fucking rough...poor bastard! What a horrible way to go, on both counts, though shitting you innards out then being thrown in an offal pit probably takes the cake! Neutral

What part of the Naki? I spent some time living in Egmont Village :rock on: and mum worked for the Tegal factory

wendalls said:
INSANITY!


You rang?
[quote]
bob said:
By the way there are no steroids used in NZ chickens.


Yup, this one is correct.

http://www.pianz.org.nz/Mythbusters/myth_busters.php
[quote]
Yep, it sucked. I worked there long enough to get my guitar money together, then I split.
I should name and shame them......Pilchards Poultry.
It's the fucked up looking one on the Puke/ Waiuku crossroads.

Naki? I lived in Waitara, but the farm (called "Seafarm" I believe, I was pretty young) was either on the way out to Inglewood, or Lepperton.
[quote]
Pechora said:
bob said:
By the way there are no steroids used in NZ chickens.


Yup, this one is correct.

http://www.pianz.org.nz/Mythbusters/myth_busters.php[/quote]

Roids maybe not the right word, but they totally put some form of chemical "encourager" in their feed.
The guy who ran the place explained it to me when I asked about the prolapsing asses.
[quote]
Pechora said:
bob said:
By the way there are no steroids used in NZ chickens.


Yup, this one is correct.

http://www.pianz.org.nz/Mythbusters/myth_busters.php[/quote]

Note it says "banned decades ago", it was decades ago when I worked there. It only has to be more than one decade to turn it into decades.
Anyway, after it was "banned", this still went on for a looooooong time.
Infact there seems to be a lot of questionable statements on that page there.
"our chickens grow so fast due to "specialist breeders overseas"?

What is the law, and what actually goes on are two very different things.
[quote]
They guy you were working for sounds pretty dodge... how long ago was this? BTW NZ chicken regulations are so much higher than the stuff you might see in the US or UK and a fuck load of a long way from what youll find in china.

quote:
The use of hormones (including steroids) was banned decades ago in New Zealand. This ban is strictly enforced. In fact, the poultry industry is the only meat industry in New Zealand that regularly checks for the presence of hormone residues in its meat! Advertising on chicken packaging that claims 'no added hormones' is not differentiating its product, but instead, is stating an industry-wide regulation.

Nor are chickens fed any unnatural growth promotants. Most of the improvements in how fast birds grow is thanks to specialist breeders overseas, who have selectively bred birds to grow more quickly and efficiently. Intensive research into the chicken's precise nutritional requirements, better animal husbandry, better housing and improvements in healthcare have also contributed to improving bird growth and to reducing the time it takes to get chickens to market size.
[quote]


quote:
The truth is though; there is no logical reason for any producer to add a hormone to poultry feed. The amazing improvements that have been brought about through normal genetic selection (not the use of GMO's) and improvements in and the general management of our birds obviate the need for this form of enhancement. In a recent trial, Ross 308 birds were compared to a flock of birds that have been randomly selected so as to show no genetic improvement since 1957. In addition, feeds typical of the two periods were used. The results are shown in table 1. Note that weight of a modern bird on modern feed is nearly 5 times greater than the 1957 regime at 42 days. Also, the modern birds used less than half the feed to achieve the same weight. Note that modern birds carry nearly twice as much breast meat on a percentage basis as their predecessors. It was estimated that 80% of the measured improvement was as a result of genetic improvement and feed made a 20% contribution.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There have been ongoing improvements in egg production as well. Tables 2, makes use of data published by the Hy-Line breeding company to illustrate the improvement experienced over the last decade. These changes are not as dramatic as the changes seen in the broiler industry for two reasons. Firstly, the hen is physiologically not capable of laying more than an egg a day, and secondly, because the birds take longer to mature the same selection perssure can not be brought to bear.
[quote]
catching free range chooks is easy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Km3UwHHBU

By the way, the definition of free range - isn't usually what most consumers think it is.
[quote]
LeKnight said:
Pechora said:
bob said:
By the way there are no steroids used in NZ chickens.


Yup, this one is correct.

http://www.pianz.org.nz/Mythbusters/myth_busters.php[/quote]

Note it says "banned decades ago", it was decades ago when I worked there. It only has to be more than one decade to turn it into decades.
Anyway, after it was "banned", this still went on for a looooooong time.
Infact there seems to be a lot of questionable statements on that page there.
"our chickens grow so fast due to "specialist breeders overseas"?

What is the law, and what actually goes on are two very different things.


http://www.spesfeed.co.za/Hormones in Poultry Feeds.htm
quote:

It should also be remembered that all hormones are proteins, and if included in the diet they would be digested in the same manner as all other sources of protein. This would mean that each bird would need to be injected with hormone. This would possibly have to be on a daily basis, but even if it was only required on a weekly basis it would clearly not be possible to implement.
[quote]
wendalls said:
when it comes to food - if I have to be a scientist to read the label I will most likely put it down and find an alternative.
Not really anything to do with free range as such I guess but eating as food as close to its natural happy state as poss.


so do you know what all those exxx's or xxx's this or that mean now 'cos I sure don't?

'cept to mean avoid
[quote]
heh and for that reason food scientists started naming their products with nice sounding trademarks...

By the way it obvious the foods that are bad for you and it isnt the ones with additives which are usually fairly standard (found in other foods natuarally). Its the fatty sugary foods that people eat too much of and alcohol. Processed doesn't inherently mean too many or bad additives. Hell cutting something with a knife is processing it (there are actually people who follow diets where food isnt allowed to be processed/cooked at all).
[quote]
Bob, about 23 years ago now, and yep he was well dodgy. Most live food farmers were back then.
Animals of any kind didnt have feelings.
Have you ever seen a pig have a ring put in its nose?, seen a cow have it's horns hacksawed off, or burnt with acid.?
Seen a flyblown sheep treated with a knife and iodine?
Before cows were eartagged, they used to use a device that removed a chunk of the ear.
Two day old bobby calves put out for collection? Veal anyone?????


In regards to the second quote about chickens not being psychologly capable of laying more than one,
doesnt mean they cant "physically".
I understand the rules and codes etc, but it's only a recent thing for them to be enforced.

For the record I really dislike how we treat chooks.
Example, everytime you get a wing from a pack of dirty bird and the very end is broken, it's due to the way they are handled (most of the time while they are still alive)
[quote]
I grew up on a lifestyle blcok i guess you would call it. We had sheep to keep the grass down (not for food) but we still had to dock and chop. Our neighbour used to home kill pigs the way that the pacific islanders like them to be killed.... fucking brutal.

The point is that almost all commercially grown meat is done a lot better than the horror stories you see/read/hear about.

As for other things done a few decades ago I recently came across home recladding job where the homeowner was stripping and sanding back the coating put on it previously. Went to find out about the product being used and if the dust would be harmful.... PCP (not the the drug), Mercury and Lead.... Though to be fair the coating had lasted very very well for 30 years without maintenance, you wouldnt get that out of any present coating.

So judging the past by standards of today is not really that helpful.
[quote]
Pechora said:
LeKnight said:
This! Look at the shape of our teeth, they is for meat.


Nobody is denying this though. I love meat - I'd never be a flat out vegetarian, but we're definitely consuming way more meat than we need to be - certainly more than at any other point in human history. We've got a whole world of delicious cheap meats thanks to the industralisation of food, meats which used to be unheard of delicacies even 50 years ago. There's no need for it really,


There's no need for most things

We could all live on a calory controlled gruel produced in massive protein farms probably

Meat farming is the least harmful "bad thing" we do. Worry about peak oil.
[quote]
wendalls said:
when it comes to food - if I have to be a scientist to read the label I will most likely put it down and find an alternative.
Not really anything to do with free range as such I guess but eating as food as close to its natural happy state as poss.


You realise there's a "scientific" name for every "natural happy" thing? E.g. it could be "cane sugar" or "sucrose" etc.
[quote]
Ahh the old lead based paint! (my first parrot died from eating this!!Mad )
Pretty fucked what people used to do.
And Mr Key's all for whaling......

I agree the standards of conditions modern farming gives the animals has come a loooooong way.
Still have a bit to go however.
I was fucking appalled to hear we are considering cage farming beef!?!?!

"HEY NEW ZEALAND, JUST BECAUSE AMERICA DOES IT, IT DOESNT MAKE IT OK!!!!"
[quote]
vadinho said:
wendalls said:
when it comes to food - if I have to be a scientist to read the label I will most likely put it down and find an alternative.
Not really anything to do with free range as such I guess but eating as food as close to its natural happy state as poss.


You realise there's a "scientific" name for every "natural happy" thing? E.g. it could be "cane sugar" or "sucrose" etc.


While I agree with the idea that food is best eaten processed as little as possible, vads raises a good point. Just because the name is a bit scary looking, doesn't mean it's bad for you. It's not about being a scientist, it's trivial to Google the common additives and understand where they come from.
[quote]
bob said:
there are actually people who follow diets where food isnt allowed to be processed/cooked at all).


well they are fools
[quote]
vadinho said:
Worry about peak oil.


how about peak tuna?
[quote]
Haven't read all of this, but it might interest some of you http://blog.ted.com/2010/03/qa_with_chef_da.php?utm_medium=on.ted.com-twitter&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_content=site-basic

and his Ted Talk http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_barber_how_i_fell_in_love_with_a_fish.html