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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7744273.stm

Should NZ consider cutting GST back to 10% to help alleviate the gloomy forecast?

R
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not yet I think if at all
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It's a tax cut to business though - not to consumers. It won't pump consumer spending because I think most of the cut is unlikely to pass through to retail prices; it will just be a lower GST bill for businesses.
That in itself may be a good thing though...

It just needs a proper economic analysis - I imagine Treasury has them but a quick search hasn't found them for me. What decrease in revenue for Govt spending does it create, and what's the expected economic improvement (based on assumptions around price elasticity, inflation soaking it up etc etc)
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remove GST on certain items as mooted pre election

*flees thread*
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bob daktari said:
remove GST on certain items as mooted pre election

*flees thread*

And increase the cost required for administering it all? That would be against what National have campaigned for.
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garethw said:
It's a tax cut to business though - not to consumers. It won't pump consumer spending because I think most of the cut is unlikely to pass through to retail prices; it will just be a lower GST bill for businesses.
That in itself may be a good thing though...



But isn't GST a consumer tax thought?

Businesses are usually GST neutral as long as they're not the final consumer of a good and service.
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karhoo1 said:
But isn't GST a consumer tax thought?

Businesses are usually GST neutral as long as they're not the final consumer of a good and service.


Correct. Not quite sure what Garethw was on about. Removing GST directly reduces the retail cost of pretty much everything.

R
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karhoo1 said:
garethw said:
It's a tax cut to business though - not to consumers. It won't pump consumer spending because I think most of the cut is unlikely to pass through to retail prices; it will just be a lower GST bill for businesses.
That in itself may be a good thing though...



But isn't GST a consumer tax thought?

Businesses are usually GST neutral as long as they're not the final consumer of a good and service.

Operationally, a consumer-facing business charges a price that happens to include GST. I think in the majority of cases (not all, but most) a retailer currently selling something for $99incl GST will continue to sell it for $99incl GST, and just pay a lower GST bill in the short-term. It will not drive significantly lower prices across the board.
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garethw said:
...continue to sell it for $99incl GST, and just pay a lower GST bill in the short-term. It will not drive significantly lower prices across the board.


That's a fair call. Wonder how that could be avoided. I can see now, drop GST to 10% and the pre-GST prices of everything just creep up by 2.5%.. claiming: it was time for a price rise.

R
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"RobW" said:
garethw said:
I can see now, drop GST to 10% and the pre-GST prices of everything just creep up by 2.5%.. claiming: it was time for a price rise.

R

Yeah precisely - I'm predicting the tax reduction will be mostly sucked up in after-tax price inflation by businesses. That may have longer-term economic impetus effects but it shouldn't be used as a short-term consumer shot in the arm because it will be anything but...
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"garethw" said:
RobW said:
garethw said:
I can see now, drop GST to 10% and the pre-GST prices of everything just creep up by 2.5%.. claiming: it was time for a price rise.

R

Yeah precisely - I'm predicting the tax reduction will be mostly sucked up in after-tax price inflation by businesses. That may have longer-term economic impetus effects but it shouldn't be used as a short-term consumer shot in the arm because it will be anything but...


Not necessarily.

Competitive pressures on the retail front will force such retailers to ensure that the 2.5% reduction (for example), passes on to the consumer.

In key categories, this will be apparent. We are already seeing heavy discounting in a lot of FMCG categories, and even in heavy industry goods like automobiles, so I don't think that retailers will get greedy in such times in an effort to artificially increase margins because there will be other retailers taking advantage of the 'lower price' message in an effort to boost sales by volume (which is rapidly deteriorating).

Unlike things like bulk bargaining, which will allow a specific retailer to reduce prices and not another; a GST reduction is nation-wide and gives each and every manufacturer or retailer the same benefit. I think this is one time where the market will prevail.

For businesses, it will be a decision between increasing yields or losing market share. Most businesses right now are happy maintaining yields as long as they don't lose market share. They will make their decisions based on their expectations on what their competitors will do, and I don't think they will assume that all their competitors will absorb the tax benefit.
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Heh after absorbing costs for a time i think a movement in the opposite direction will be good for the construction industry. That said it is so competitive at the moment its unlikely to make a huge difference to suppliers and merchants. Only the end user will benefit from the price reduction though there may be a slight increase in purchasing as even 2.5% over a $300K house is significant.
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karhoo1 said:
Not necessarily.

Competitive pressures on the retail front will force such retailers to ensure that the 2.5% reduction (for example), passes on to the consumer.

I'm really not so sure - you're description is a lovely neoclassical retail economics theory, but did we see a price discount when the business tax rate was reduced? I accept that is one-step removed but still of the same general concept.
If there was enough hype, and an odd first mover in an otherwise price-parity industry then perhaps it would be driven off consumer values of fairness. But I don't see it being that widespread. The retail competition you talk about has driven margins so low that I think in a lot of cases businesses would rather pick up that extra little margin to survive. Enough of them do it quietly and they'll all keep it.

And 2.5% translates to very little in most normal amounts - if something is now retailing for $49, it's not going to suddenly become $48. A bottle of milk is unlikely to move from $3.40 to $3.32 because of competitive pressure. Any individual item sub $100 (which would make up a pretty high percentage of consumer spending I reckon) would be unlikely to move in price I wager.

Well, we can see how it plays out in the UK I suppose - if we actually get economic analysis beyond media hype...
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taxes on spending are (excluding their imposition on necessities) the fairest way imo for the governement to acquire revenue. so i dont really think they should be reduced permanently.
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Hmm, I don’t know. While I agree that what you say is a scenario that might well happen, personally, I think that it is a scenario which assumes that businesses operate in a vacuum and decisions are made in isolation of the wider marketplace.

Yes, a price reduction in milk from $3.40 to $3.32 might seem ridiculous, but that is only 1 good. You need to consider, if we’re talking grocery shopping, that consumers are buying a basket of goods.

So if you take an average weekly grocery spend of say, $100 (which is low for the average family), then multiplied by 52 weeks that 2.5% reduction becomes much more pronounced.

While each consumer will still maintain a brand preference in tight times, and lets assume the will pay more for the preferred brand of milk; it is likely that this will come at the cost of other goods ie choosing Signature Range bread over Tip Top bread. And we all know that in FMCG at least, home/personal brands are very competitive in driving down prices.

So for the milk manufacturer, the decision to introduce a price creep cannot be made in a vacuum. They will be considering the overall impact their price has on the overall basket of goods, because their competitive set is not limited to other brands of milk alone, but to the wider grocery category. They may lose 30% market share for a $0.08 increment on their remaining 70% market share… or they may lose more if people decide that they will sacrifice milk for better meat. This 30% share can be very difficult to claw back from their competitors when times are good again.

For example, I switched to Home Brand Wheatmeal which is at least $1.00 cheaper than any other bread brands in the market. I won’t switch back because I’m finding that Home Brand is actually quite good, and gives me more value for money. I’ve acquired a taste for it over time which has surpassed my previous brand (Quality Bakers). They have lost me as a customer.

On the flipside, competitive retailers will also understand the above scenario. Hence, they are likely to act in accordance with consumer choices to maximise their market share and yields. If Home Brand milk realises that Anchor isn’t reducing it’s price in a GST reduction scenario, while Home Brand chooses too, it will inadvertently gain market share as a result (this will be part of their scenario modelling at least) – and it will be a strategy worth pursuing for a discount brand. Any market share gained will be easier to defend in the future because of their price position, they will also have more room to increase prices later vs Anchor which will have more limited room (any further increase might lose it more market share).


And don’t forget too, that in other areas such as utilities, prices are often set exclusive of GST. When you get a letter from Mercury saying that they are increasing prices, it is always quoted exclusive of GST. On your phone bills cost of calls are also stated excluding GST. Any price increases here are much more apparent than in a retail product and will almost certainly be questioned if it happens at the same time as a GST reduction. It is probably much more difficult to change a utility provider than it is to switch retail brands; but again, if consumers have to spend here that just means less spending elsewhere.

The overall impact, I think, will still be a decrease in prices for consumer, and hence decrease the overall cost of living in tight economic times. It may not happen in all areas but I think in the majority of competitive categories, there will be a downward price pressure, not least because a GST reduction induces consumer perception that prices will be lower, and hence creates an expectation by which the absence of a price reduction on the retail end will cause the consumer to consider their spending in that category. Remember, the consumer is also not making his/her decision in a vacuum.
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Bloody hell it starts on MONDAY! I'm working with a client at the moment who's slightly panicking - updating accounting systems, price tickets, labels etc is a pretty big task and they have 4 working days to do it! Changes in tax systems are normally months or years in the delivery. The cost of change will almost certainly swamp any uptick in volumes (and given most UK retailers are running big sales discounts at the moment the 2.5% will get lost in the noise anyway).

Apparently there is a big consumer-media push like I described above ramping up though so consumers are likely to demand that 2.5% change from the previous day...
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Who was it that suggested a variable GST rate (much like the RB interest rates) to help curb consumer spending?
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bob said:
Who was it that suggested a variable GST rate (much like the RB interest rates) to help curb consumer spending?

Don't know but sounds ridiculous to me Laughing
The costs of changing everything on a regular basis would be a significant deadweight loss - I guess systems, processes and consumer expectations would change to handle it better but they'd still exist.
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garethw said:
bob said:
Who was it that suggested a variable GST rate (much like the RB interest rates) to help curb consumer spending?

Don't know but sounds ridiculous to me Laughing
The costs of changing everything on a regular basis would be a significant deadweight loss - I guess systems, processes and consumer expectations would change to handle it better but they'd still exist.


Wouldn't that contradict the whole notion of price stability though?

GST fluctuations the way you describe have a much more direct and immediate impact on the marketplace and consumer spending than OCR adjustments.
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I dont see it as a major, as you said it is almost invisible to businesses as their systems only add it at external transactions.

It would put an immediate impact on consumption without affecting the volitile and somewhat slow to react housing/construction market.
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bob said:
I dont see it as a major, as you said it is almost invisible to businesses as their systems only add it at external transactions.

Really? You have to change printed prices, advertised prices, labelled prices, you have to re-do pricing analysis because the customer cares about end price not ex-GST price, you have to change accounting systems to handle it. It's pretty transactionally intensive to change, and doing it every three months would be a real dead cost for business.
Plus it's a revenue source for Govt - each time it was changed the implications on the Govt books would need to be taken into account (it's about a quarter of all Govt revenue).
It world be worst for poor people, who couldn't choose when to undertake spending to optimise their tax exposure (when it needs to be high it would directly punish the less well off). It would be open for abuse because changes would have to be signalled well in advance so distortions would occur to maximise tax behaviour.

Treasury or someone studied it recently and said it would be less effective, more volatile and with worst welfare performance. So not a great outcome!
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Sure there are issues but if it became known that gst would be semi variable then it wouldnt take much to set it up. An accounting system has no dificulty dealing with discounts and ratios whether its 12.5 10 or 15%.

Weren't you just saying its not a huge amount?

garethw said:
And 2.5% translates to very little in most normal amounts


Not arguing for its implementation so much as for it being considered as a tool to adjust things in times of extreme measures being required.