Drum & Bass clubnite

OK so theres a solid Drum & bass radio show happening, Max FM 107.1 thursdays from 6 - 8 Qbik & HSD.

We know theres a few unsatisfied Junglist's out there not satisfied with current quota of breakbeats being served up so, next....a weekly night.

a) Where would you like to see it// Which club or clubs ?


b) Who would you want to see playing locally?, and on the bigger scale passing thru?

my suggestion is to get out of catalyst....i'm sure that place is cursed, I mean how long has dnb been down there now, like 5 years and you still get like 30 peeps on a fridee, gay as!

Try a new club that is on street level where the "vibe" can easily be seen from punters walking past. hammy obviously is not ready for an underground niche club - this has been proven time and time again with the ownership of crapalyst changing hands how many times in the last 5 years??

I think what you and Q_Bik are doing with the radio show is the most positive thing to happen in the hamilton "dance culture" in ages. Just so long as you can get a following (which i'm fully confident you will). This should in theory translate to numbers in clubs (booty in the hooty ).

Do you guys do giveaways to your gigs on the show, do you promote the parties on your show?

is it possible to gauge the numbers listening to your show at anyone time?

Do you have corporate sponsorship (and i dont mean energy pills - try some one like Adidas (NZ) - i've heard their quite helpful with these kinda things - then you can give away cool things like clothes and shoes and that sure to get the punters listening)

Do you communicate with your audience on a regular basis to find out what they want - and i dont mean biggie

With regards to whose playing what etc etc, I believe that hammy is not big on names, that was proven last time presha came down. What peeps want in hammy is quality and consistency of dj's. Select dj's that are well known in hamilton and who have a following, such as youself, PJ, Intrinsik, Felun , Advokit, steve etc etc.

The other thing that you must tell all your dj's is to stop playing for themselves and play to the crowd. I'm not gunna mention any names but in times gone by i have seen to many dj's at catalyst looking down all the time. It is imperative that you do what the crowd want you to do, and i hate to say but in this case doing what the chicks want to do seems to be even more important. get the chicks and the crowd will follow, but the chicks aint gunna stay if they dont like the music. Do you see what i mean? i realise i'm rambling a bit now.

anyhoo, i think your enthusiasm should be congratulted HSD, its great to see, and i wish you the best of british with your endeavourse

What Cosha said above.

Except in addition using the funding from a much needed sponsor like Adidas (NZ) Throw in a bit of promotion in the way of flyers at both Tech and Waikato University, not to mention at some select areas of town, e.g. where people demo music by the Headphone Stands in Sounds music store (if its still going) also the cafe's where people go to catch up and talk about what they should do the up coming weekend, along with various other places relevant to the market area that you can think of.

IS there even a different option for a venue?

Yes to all above Cosha and Rival, and welcomed input as allways....

I know me radio.
Preferably Rainbow Creek to ADIDAS tho.
No way of gauging listener numbers yet unless they all call in throughout the show. Sound off junglist's.

Quote Cosha:The other thing that you must tell all your dj's is to stop playing for themselves and play to the crowd:
Who's DJ's?....and I play to the crowd first and foremost. Its entertainment innit.
before we go on a side track tho'

This is about a clubnite hosting D&B tho not how to run a radio show .

Ok theres two votes for outside of Catalyst.
I have been looking at upstairs Catalyst on a friday nite, liqweed styles.... maybe not the best place.

And that does prompt the question, Where else?

So Again

a) Where would you like to see it// Which club or clubs ? Liquid Lounge would be cool, as it is Liquid music for the ladies after all.

heres a few more hint's. Catalyst bar & Venue, Sohl bar & Restaurant, Alcove, Monkeyfeather, Liquid lounge, Ward lane tavern, the Bank upstairs, Sekure, the Loft, Granite, feul.....thats all I can think of.


b) Who would you want to see playing locally?, and on the bigger scale passing thru?

Local D&B dj's = Felun, Encephalon, Qbik, Enkrypta, Cosha, Intrinsik, Mr Mukura, Vhari, Akomplis, myself HSD, Benny Bootleg, Nigel and a few more new comers...
Nationaly = Well you name em we'll get em.

Cmon theres only another 4 D&B user's on here, really.
Prove me wrong.

JUNGLE FOREVER!

nise one mate good too see ur still getin in there and organizing shit.

Yup good idea!!

how about a regular (weekly if possible) night with a rotating local DJ policy, where every local dj that is keen to get involved has a night, say for example 3 people to a night. get the rotation going so the punters get a taste of everyone in the scene.

maybe mix up the style a bit, but keep each night along the same style. eg jungle night, liquid night, grimey as fuck night.

if punters know how many people are out there playing or keen to play it will help the growth.

promotion in as many places as possible.

Venue: The trickiest part. Say hypothetically that every venue is keen to hold a dnb night. you then need to work out which one is gonna be suited best to the dnb scene and helping grow and maintaing the culture.

dress policy is a big one. if ya local junglists can't where the clothes they want into the club they may not come.

size of the venue, need somewhere that isn't gonna look empty if it is a quiet night, but still has the capacity to cope with the numbers.

liquid lounge is sweet, i remember cranking there a few years ago. do they still have that pool table in the middle of the floor??

a change of venue is a really good idea, as you will have the regulars from that venue come along anyway because that is where they go. The amount of times i have been to catalyst on a hard house night is horrific when i think about it! i dont even like hard house!!! but cause catalyst is where i normally go i end up there???

VENUE MUST HAVE YAGER IN STOCK!!!

other venues:
Loft: sweet little bar, dance floor out the back seems to be big enough for a medium crowd. dress policy maybe a downfall.

Sekure: also a nice little joint, but dance floor probably to close to the bar for wild junglist steppers! dress policy a downfall?? but have hosted DnB before, but a bit anti the darker stuff from what i hear.

Monkey Feather: from what i remember years ago, good venue for a dance bar, would be a sweet location for a DnB night, but would they be up for it???

Alcove: unsure myself as have only been up there a few times?? to raped to remember!

Sohl: wicked little place, always open to something new it seems. but unsure on ability to host a DnB gig?? is there much of a dance floor and a sweet area for the DJ's???

Fuel: maybe to big to cater for a junglist shindig in Hamilton at the mo?? might look empty?? always seems to be packed though, so might get some new heads. alot of punters in there seem a bit wanky though?? wanna be aucklanders maybe?? do they still have the R20 policy ??

Granite: could be worth a shot, have never been in there to tell ya the truth so can't comment. But they have hosted dance parties before.

Well worth investigating and putting some work into creating this though! this is what h town needs. Sponsorship would be well worth investigating!

Maybe also try to get some internationals, or bigger new zealand acts through to keep the punters on there toes.

Skyver and DJon again would be sweet! that was a fucken dope night.

what about the upbeats again when they come back home.

state of mind.
Bulletproof?? what are they doing these days??
Pacific Heights?? what are they up to??
Mosus again when he returns.

I know it costs money to bring em and the return is shit as fuck if anything at all. Maybe if this night gets up and running and becomes successful, it will be possible to bring in the big guns!!

big ups on the radio show to guys! and big ups HSD for getting this ball rollin

loft would be the ideal place really (less the pool table) but that wont happen, its not their market.

Sekure is cool and fun, but feels a little like a waiting room, as in people are there waiting to go to a party or something...not to maention the door in the middle of the place?

sohl is warm and nice...but meh

Catalyst is good in moments, but waiting till 3am for people to show will kill the place...

if something happens it should play for the night, a good range thru the genre (so people dont get bored)to suit the vibe (djs job) the djs should deinitly be drinking quite alot, so they play slightly off so people know theyre mixing...this also encourages the "one lazy bung eye" mixing style which has been cultured for some time, all the people in the room must drink and be merry....surroundings must be comfortable and warm for that feel good nod factor

then maybe more ladies will come listen to ur drum and bass

upstairs catalyst could have that potential, but its not open...has good booths for drinkin and from what ive heard doesnt sound too bad?

the night like jiba said should be weekly, so its on all the time, u dont have to question it, just rock in get bla ed/boozed what hav ya

internatty djs....whos gonna go see em in Hamilton?

HSD wrote:-

Quote Cosha:The other thing that you must tell all your dj's is to stop playing for themselves and play to the crowd:
Who's DJ's?....and I play to the crowd first and foremost. Its entertainment innit.
before we go on a side track tho'

This is about a clubnite hosting D&B tho not how to run a radio show .

I know its a club nite bro, thats why i wrote that. I dont think people can see you when your on a radio show!. My suggestions for your radio show were for incorporating your radio stuff into your clubnite stuff.

Also if you notice i said i wasn't mentioning any names with regards to dj's, i was generalising that some of the time the "Dj's" look bored and dont interact with what the crowd are doing...IMO

on another tip i didnee realise how many clubs hamilton has (re:- Jiba's bit) theres quite a few now and seeing as catalyst is a cold, unforgiving dungeon, it looks positive to get something started elsewhere!! choice 1

Whatever you decide to do laff you have my support (where i can give it ) and i hope you succeed with this, which i'm sure you will

All good Coshey, was just trying to keep on track

Big up Electrode Ive had the producer hat on for the last 6 month's and is a bit depressing to return to this, even as a punter. This time last year D&B was running tings and growing steadily. Now its we just gotta start from scratch.

In regard to sound. Catalyst Lounge bar IMO still has the best sound quality in Hamilton.....really.
In saying that I havent tested many other systems, Sohl ,sekure,Liquid lounge, only heard and sometimes-mostimes can be the way the Dj or fatcontroller runs his mix.

Ward lane could be the go, tho they dont have a sound system, and they regularily rent the venue out for "Real music" like 80's and 70's pubrock revivalist's, or the indie rock massive.
lack of sound is the main turn off, especially for every week.

Is there any dnb in Hamilton this weekend, or even coming weekends?!

sweet bro,
i totally agree, catalyst just hums along when it is full, its just getting the numbers down there.

Ward lane, now theres a name from the past, once again tho laff, the remoteness of it may turn punters off, and then you get get dan from click in to install his JBL system ra de ra de ra.....=mission!

Laff do you think running a one-off warehouse party as a gauging tool could be a goer?. Ie get sponsorship, promote the living funk out of it for like 3 weeks prior and see what the turnouts like. maybe some of hammy massive dont live there anymore?

or do what shane did in roto-vegas with salmonella dub etc etc, create that hype and then build on it thru your weekly clubnites?

what about doing summit on campus (bongo - does that place still exist) in the past we have done some mean parties there, and it gets the uni crowd into it too.

Wonder if the hilly would be keen for a change and have a weekly dnb nite. Did Q-Bik and yourself impress the management when shape-shifter were there? if so, maybe you could build on that.

its cool tho, that for once people aren't arguing on here!!!

good stuff

Friday August 13 Funkshun and Intrinsik @ Catalyst

eZ

Laff, agree with Cosha, do not go for an every weekend club night, at least not yet. Do it every three weeks, and when you do it - do it fucking properly. I think one of the biggest mistakes us Hamiltonians have made (other than the lack of promotion) is that we tried to develop a scene by pushing it every single weekend (with limited funds) in what the general populace would consider obscure music. I mean to me you and other fans, we can handle it every weekend and it’s not obscure, but then we are in a minority. So do your Radio Station and then once every three weeks/month you do a big party at Ward Lane or (insert best venue here) and make sure it has couches, a big fuck off DnB system, sponsorship to help it, etc etc.. Trying to meet that same expectation for every single weekend is not only expensive it just seems unrealistic given the times. It’s not to say it could not grow into a weekly thing, but you will know when this is possible because all the signs will be clearly indicating its viability. i.e the venue is fucking jam packed and there’s punters cheering, and new comers all wanting to learn how to spin etc..

Not to mention that if you are pushing this alone every single week you are going to need a break at times. I say space it out a little, so that when you do put on the parties they are well planned, funded and strong, representing DnB/Jungle the way it was meant to be.

:goats:

Nah bro, bongo is long gone, shut up shop with to many hassles in 2000 or 01 as far as i can remember. Uni doesn't have an establishment anymore. But yeah that place woulda been a good location for a one off.

Hilly closes at midnight as I understand it.

My main concerns are Stabilty, Quaility & Growth.

I think just for beginers upstairs Catalyst on a friday night would be great starting ground.

I dont want this night to be about boozy punters making it a sucess at 3 o clock,which is why other venues are up for debate, but, more of a starting point for contempary music and what music is more 2005 than D&B? Its still the most forward positive music of our time. The people that choose to accept that fact, will find us ...and, hear our local producer's. And fuck me theres more Quality producers here than DJ's. I just counted 6...And once thier tunes are playing to a nice little "scene" (u know what that word means) well that's when it will get interesting...but we wont go there yet.


Hence the begining of this night somewhere like......................................

GOOD THINGS
EVERYTING BLESS
EVERYONE BLESS

mmmmmmm......

I would love to see sOme weekly dnb! But is it worth the hassle. The last few friday nites i have been down to Catalyst have been pathetic.......
I like most people are becoming sick of heading down to an empty club until the munters arrive at 3.
I think having the top bar shut all the time is the worst thing catalyst could be doing.....everyone who walks down to an empty basement on a fri nite walks straight back out.

Why cant quiet fri or sat nite parties be started off upstairs. It's a much more comfortable environment to drink in early in the night. If the party starts cranking move it downstairs. That top bar needs to be utilised!

Laff i think trying some new venues could be a good idea. I know steve is doing a dnb night at liquid lounge this month! He's not playing liquid either!
Granite could be a cool venue. They have a big area at the back which would be great for a dance floor.

I also think alcove has potential too. went to some COOL parties there 3 or 4 years ago.

Going somewhere that already has plenty of regulars seems to be the best idea to me. Try some one off parties at liquid or even fuel and see what response you get.....educate the masses!

Theres plenty of DJ's i would love to see play in htown, but realistically laff is it really worth spending lots of money to get the more high profile ones to play when 95% of the people there have no idea who they are anyway.

I think you need to focus building a good solid following with ya local dj's first.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY.........
Catalyst and it's dj's/promoters need to get of their fucking lazy asses and actually properly promote and advertise their parties. A post on biggie and an ad in Infusion is not promotion............THESE methods only reach a very small proportion of your potential market.

HAMILTON HAS DJ'S, BUT HAMILTON HAS NO REAL PROMOTERS, JUST DJ'S WHO LIKE TO CALL THEMSELVES PROMOTERS.........

I really think there needs to be more shopers before opening another wharehouse.

And I do want these little fridays to lead to some sort of massive that could sustain events like that.

Im not in the position to risk a night like that.
Tho an injection like that might be the electric shock to kickstart.
If anyone wants to run a wharehouse thing they have my Complete support. Ive got my on tings running.

In regard to running tings, Rival & Cosha you both missed the monthly MOFO D&B nights. I think we got up to 7, and ran it for over a year.
International and local artists. I think allmost everyone I could think of locally has played at least one. Expectations grew every time.

Its my personal mission now to start a nice little friday thing, and go from there.

consistency is key, if somethings gonna start it has to be weekly, or building something will never happen

agree with leithel...keywords being pathetic till 3am then the munters show (not good munters jus people hoping for a last ditch attempt to hook up)

Would you like to get involved in Promotions Leith

agreed, if starting from scratch again it does need to be as regular as possible. Small to start with is probably the key, almost like "deflowering a virgin". no point going at it with mega cash for it to fall down around you and get disheartend and call it quits. test the water but with plenty of promotion.

Yes lets deflower those Virgins.

Yes this weekend there is some dnb being played at Sohl...
Tonite.. friday night.. with myslef and maybe some guests..

dont know bout u tho j7

Good thread

Some are saying weekly, some reckon 3weekly/monthly and there are good reasons for both.

I guess the compromise is to do it well, especially promotion wise as often as you can. The main limitation would be funds (or lack there of) so to start with do it well, as often as you can given the recourses you have avail. If that happens to be 3weekly/monthly initially then so be it and build from there.

Go nutz Laff, you got my support too \m/

"Would you like to get involved in Promotions Leith"

I would actually! I'm happy to help out and put some work into promoting gigs properly. I got plenty of ideas too

a) Where would you like to see it// Which club or clubs ?


b) Who would you want to see playing locally?, and on the bigger scale passing thru ?


Sohl was a great vibe last nite, heaps of boy's, A few older lads head noddin' and a foot tapperin', the few ladies that were there were all off chop's overall a busy nite.
Not to happy about the sound Quality tho' Im sure the soundsystem used to sound better, but it could be just the connection as CD's from the CD player sounded fine. Shout out to Mark & Qbik for that one, first time Id played there in years.

great thread!
was good to see jiba and leithel last night randomly outside while at sohl.. it was nice.. having a few headz n sohl .. good chats and tings are going start ticking over more so now.. that tings look like they gona step up again! all good!

lets keep the momentum starting up thru this thread and all the tings happening.. and carry it over into action..


big ups h-town massive.. great to see some positive threads with great ideas, and things be said!

RESPECT!

Well, there's a young lass by the name of Renee Casserly who is applying to the Arts Council for a series of grants in order to get some decent gigs up and going in Hamilton, with no risk to the promoter (about $750 per gig for 6 monthly gigs). In conjunction with this, she will be applying for a larger ($3000 initial) grant in order to get a decent, colour, corporately-sponsored zine circulating, as a support device for these gigs. I believe her original idea for the gigs was centred around the rock scene, but after further conversation it looks as if the zine at least will be multi-genre and generally supportive of all gigs and going-ons in Hamilton.

She is on the council herself, so it shouldn't be difficult to push through. Certainly, she is really open to ideas and I think promoters/musicians in this town would definitely be taking it to the next level if they decided to ALL work together to push these things forward. If you want to talk to her, let me know and I'll give you her details, as she'll be going for the gig grants in the aug/sep round. The zine should follow soon after.

It would be really cool if everyone acknowledged that, in spite of any genre differences, their interests are the same. I say get in on the same boat as Ms Casserly, and pull both crowds to the same venue OR split the gigs and have a ward laneish type affair one month, and a d&B the next. With a decent (Fix/Low Hum-like) zine/gig guide, Max FM and Contact both behind it (they're not exactly competing for listenership) could this type of thing not herald the beginning of a beautiful, council-supported, relationship?

sorry, not 6 monthly gigs as in gigs every six months.

that should read "six gigs, over six months".

Could i get her details from ya. I'm a photographer so would be keen to get involved with the zine and possibly other things too, thanks.......spot me an email at leithel@paradise.net.nz if ya dont wanna post her details here

hey ROZ..

Can u please email me rene's details as Im keen to link up and chat with her serious on some topics..

thanks

PJ

hey ROZ..

Can u please email me rene's details as Im keen to link up and chat with her serious on some topics..

thanks

PJ

Nice one Roz, cheers for the heads up.

If Ms Casserly would like to discuss anything further here how she can contact me.

Marc (HSD) Tetzlaff
Dust
5 bern rd
R.D.8
Hamilton
New Zealand
ph : 021 0369 366
AIM : highspeeddubbing
MSN :highspeeddubbing@hotmail.com

/the Drum & Bass show on Max fm 107.1 w/ HSD & Qbik. Thurs 6 -8pm. only in Hamilton.
// Friday nite Drum & Bass @ Catalyst Lounge . 270 victoria st, Hamilton w/DJ's HSD & Felun
///Out now Katchafire 'Rude girl' Macro & HSD 'jungle version' limited edition 12" and Cd single on MAI records.
////Coming soon new Katchafire remix of second single 'gotcha back' from Macro & HSD & Mai Music ltd.

Yup. Check your emails.

Actually, um, what's your email PJ?

So whats your take on the topic of this thread Roz? while your here.

What was the topic again? I've got a shitty attention span.

Okay, scrolling through the topic review....

Um, well. Venues are a major issue I guess. I agree with Cosha on the Catalyst being cursed thing - blame feng shui or bad vibes or something that Ivan from JBCs left behind, downstairs has always kinda given me the creeps. Maybe it was creepy because of the people that were gumming their big toothy grins all over the show back in the day. That was pretty scary. I hate gums, they're weird.

I dunno. I don't know shit about this scene. There appear to be enough DJs to support it. But drugs, personality clashes, egos, politics, apathy, etc. all seem to hinder the development of some kind of cohesion.

I guess there is this rhetoric about "community". People want a "community" that fosters their own personal interests, and there's where it all fucks out. Each person has their own idea of what the "community" should entail, who should be a part of it, what is should foster, etc. The "community" never gets much of a chance to become a living, breathing entity because it is made up of people who are individualistic in their outlook. They want their own needs met and are unwilling to work within a holistic framework. A bit like a Rudolf Steiner school - fucked from the outset.

That said, blah blah blah, thats a big generalisation which can only be applied to certain people in certain places at certain times.

I really like Sohl. It's a silly layout in lots of ways, but it is a place that manages to host all kinds of evenings and events and somehow pull them off. Everyone is always happy at Sohl (where everybody knows your name).

I guess, whatever anybody does, you have to have an ultimate goal in sight - whether that goal is the journey, or some end result, is kind of irrelevant. You've gotta have a big picture, a big plan, a big back-up plan, and a big back-up plan to the back-up plan. You've got to trust people, and not trust other people. You've got to have the energy and the belief in what you're doing in order to see it through.

Oh yeah, cash helps too.

Nice Roz, totally agree, I always respect the position of a realist, sometimes also called the position of the objectivist (not to be confused with Ayn Rands philosophy). Personally I think there has always been a significant lack of revenue by the promoters and supporters of dance music in Hamilton, so while many people have enthusiasm and great ideas they tend to stay as ideas in many respects, or when the projects do happen they remain under funded/promoted, so because of this - viability is completely dependent on a bunch of people needing to co-operate in order for things to work, and as you just pointed out: when most of the people that Hamilton is dependent on (in regards to skills, gear, contacts and know how) needed to make this happen have drug and ego problems, personality clashes and a lack of respect and trust for each other, it tends to work against the game plan.

The thing is that identifying these aspects does little to nothing either, because when certain people have had such a long history of inconsistency and reputations that stick like glue (dishonesty, manipulative, thieves etc), it takes years and years to rebuild respect and trust so as to take emphasis off these aspects and allow people to force it to work. Essentially because of the lack of revenue the foundations on which people are working with when they do co-operate have to be far more secure than normal.

So it tends to mean the lovers of this music in Hamilton are working to a disadvantage in some respects. Not to come across as overly pessimistic because I think it’s great that people are being supportive and have good visions for Hamilton’s future/cultural diversity, I just think people need to get some priorities right first, communicate (which is what is happening here) and recognize some market fundamentals before they take risks and build successful brands/promotions based simply of idealism.

But you know I only say this because I am in Melbourne now, and it’s all too easy to compile a response, agree and click post. Things may have changed and I may be speaking from ignorance in some respects, whatever the truth of the situation ~ I still hope it works out for everyone.

I guess it comes down to risk and sacrifice. Is it a risk to involve (nameless unreliable person)in your ventures? Possibly. How big is the risk? If the risk is too big, are you willing to sacrifice the involvement of (nameless unreliable person). How big is this sacrifice? What is the risk of this sacrifice? How many apples can I buy for $4.38?

How much physical energy, emotional energy, time and money is at risk here? What will I potentially have to sacrifice? What am I personally willing to sacrifice, even though I hope I won't have to?

I think it depends on the scale of things. I see HSD is planning D&B nights upstairs, and that sounds like a really good place to start - minimum risk, minimum output, even if bugger all people show up it can still be a good, fun night. The majority of the musos I know are happy to tour the country at a financial loss, because they consider it to be a necessary sacrifice to make. They will happily play 50 gigs a year and see nothing in return. Even if their profile doesn't grow, they just want to play.

We can't control the way the way other people feel about things. What other people feel about certain things is their own personal business. We can't take ownership of that. Work out what you want to do, and do it. Hopefully, if you're an ethical person, that thing will be utilitarian in nature. But you can't control the consequences of the action, just the action itself. If you want to have a "successful" club night, make you've got a subjective definition of "successful" before you start. If it's something that you are personally gonna do, that success needs to be largely contingent on you. Success is the dependent variable, you are the independent (concrete) variable. So your version of success had better be conducive with your own personal ability.

I think Melbourne (distance) will be offering you a fair amount of objectivity here Rival - you're safe to speak.

Apologies for the ranting nature of this post .

Well described Roz. There’s this obvious grey area of where people who share a similar goal/ideology actually have very difference reasons for and methods on how to reach the desired goal. So for some it’s all about ego driven reasons, to others they want to see something culturally diverse and community based develop in Hamilton and believe they know how to best achieve it.

I believe in the later but I understand the limitations of ideas…

Regardless you need professional partnerships and good work ethics as noted above. So to describe the mechanism lightly - once the goal is agreed upon, a set of principals needs to be derived and set also, so that responsibilities, effort ratios, financial commitments, limits and understandings are circumscribed into people’s synapses and clear right from the start. Essentially if you don’t have firm foundations it leads to a myriad of problems and bottle necks further down the stream. As an example there’s nothing to stop one of the partners from putting in a half assed effort one week, not having the money for another or simply not even turning up at all. It seems very few in Hamilton understand good business management which is important. Something else you alluded towards that I agreed with is that promoting events does actually involve setting ethical precedents and refusing to work with some people because of their reputation and attitude is essential.

For me personally I would never associate let alone work with (nameless unreliable person) because on top of the obvious lack of trust, other people (being humans) tend to perceive you as guilty by association, which can also be detrimental in regards to future and present partnerships/promotions, not to mention true professionals won’t want much to do with you unless the promotion is pre organized and the pay is up front, if at all. Namely harder conditions are placed on you because of who you associate with. “We will only work with you if this expectation is met” That can be an unnecessary strain if you don’t have all the resources and finical support up front. So you have to ask yourself is the person worth it?

But that’s how it works. I would rather take the longer approach and build things slowly with good partnerships than force unreliable people to work together based on a shared ideal but with no clear ethics/foundations.

For me personaly these days (on top of what we just described) it’s more about having the cash up front, if people want to talk about a common dream or idea for a promotion, I want to see $2000 stuck down on the table or I won’t take it seriously, its just metaphysical postulating and seriously if I wanted that I would pick up a Philosophy book.

Big up to you both Rival & Roz.

Lucky for me none of those many negative points you raised refer to myself or felun.

Other than that I agree with alot of what you say.

Its easier to analise and critique the way people do what they do than to do it yourself and share the knowledge.

hhhhhmmmmmmmmm word!!! check you cats Friday night yo!!! hopefully pull a div on the night yo! big ups! check ya then

It definitely easy for people to raise myriads of good ideas without having financial backing or being ignorant of the costs involved, but also in my case to stand on the sideline and be a little critical. Both the extremes are detrimental so that’s why its up to those who are actually in the environment to take what is said into context and strike a middle ground (pragmatism) between the two (idealism/cynical) which I know Felun and yourself will do Laff.

I think the occasional post of realism is important though, but it’s never a popular position because people don’t always like to be confronted with its sterility, obviously it's not the sort of thing to focus on for positive affirmation, but sometimes it has to be said straight up to add to the equation and give some perspective.

If something said doesn't apply then it simply doesn't apply, most of what was said above was generalized anyway.

All good.

All good bro, as I said I agree with you both.

Its just people like Erevri will read what you both wrote and assume you are refering to myself, especially in that thread when that generalised.

It was more of a discalimer really.

I think when people refer to (nameless unreliable person/s) they are talking about way fruitier people than yourself Laff. We live in pseudo-crackwhore central.

Yeah, realism does have a part to play. But without hope and optimism, no one would bother doing anything. All good things in moderation..