Does anyone else find the MS/EU/IE/Opera thing...

....fucking hilarious?


Sucks that no one likes your product Opera, but trying to litigate your way into market share is no better than any anti-trust accusations hurled at MS.

I think they way MS have handled it is fucking brilliant.


(Cliffs for those not following: Opera bitches about MS including IE in Windows, EU agrees, and they expect MS to go 'OK we'll include other browsers. MS instead goes 'OK, Win 7 will be sold in EU with no browser installed by default.' EU and Opera = :/

Did Netscape and Microsoft not have the same battle 10yrs ago? Now look at Netscape

That was slightly different, in that Compaq started preloading Netscape on Windows, so MS said 'fuck you' and started linking price and availability of OEM licences to what OEM's included. Want to include Netscape? That's fine, you can either pay more for your OEM licences, or we will just refuse to tell them to you.

That's what pissed of the Department of Justice.

What EU and Opera wanted them to do is include other browsers in Windows. You know, code Microsoft has NO control over, along with free promotion and distribution of competing products. Fucking mouthbreathers.

Why cant they set up something like the search tool. First time you turn on the machine it says please select your browser - chose from a list.

I don't know if that's what MS were suggesting by 'no browser' or not.

Why should they give advertising, promotion and distribution to their competitors? Soon, you have every man and his dog pumping out a clone of FF or what have you in order to try and get on that list.

Their plan is to ship a separate CD containing IE8. OEM's are of course welcome to preload that if they want.

So how do you download/get a browser if windows doesn't come with one?

Err they already do that for the search engine so why is it such a stretch for a browser? Choosing from a list is hardly advertising, promotion or distribution.

Its just choosing from a list. They can even have ie at the top of the list followed by other in order of market share and then "other" where someone can type in any of the smaller try hards.

God i'd be fucked off if IE8 wasnt pre-installed.

I think you miss the point. Why would MS do ANYTHING to enable a competitor to get its product out there?

I think what will happen is IE will be shipped as a seperate CD perhaps with new machines.

It will be up to the supplier to choose if he throws in IE/Opera/FF or whatever.

Can see any other options for them to get a browser onto the PC's.

meh Andrew you dick. Dont post here ...

How you get a browser on there is now up to the EU to figure out imo. You can use the included CD, or OEM's can chose one to ship. Hell, Toshiba was shipping Chrome on a bunch of models recently.

Command line ftp :>

sure

Personally I now feel antitrust laws either need to be heavily dragged into the new millennium, or enforced even harder.

Apple? No Safari and iTunes bundled with OSX please.

Notepad? Paint? Can all GTFO.

Can you imagine it tho? Dell and HP WILL bundle IE8, it'll just be the HP IE8 installed bullshit version with a bunch of other crap you dont want.

The EU also commented that they didnt like the no browser option and that they preferred to have 3 browsers installed.

Which is fucking gold because they will end up being IE, Firefox and Chrome or maybe Safari. MS will intentionally leave Opera out just to spite them

MS are being cunts though, and they need to be watched because they have a long history of being cunts. They muscle their way into markets with inferior products kill off all competition then let their products stagnate. Lets not forget they only started developing IE again once Firefox started to become popular despite not coming bundled with the ubiquitous operating system. MS's solution is just a play and a fucked one at that.

Sure, point to Apple bundling Safari with OSX but you know the difference? Safari is actually good (It's also not tangled up with the actual OS like IE is but a separate app). Yup sure, Adobe have the graphic Design Market, I don't give a shit. Apple bundle iLife with new Macs, who cares really. It's when a company whose main success is in being aggressive fuckheads flood the market with shit software and better products can't even breath, y'know, that's when there is a problem.

I see no reason why they can't strip it out and allow choice through autoupdates. And fucking hell, at the very least stop installing core parts of the product in the system folder.

I think perhaps you misunderstand the reasons behind antitrust laws Kris, it is to prevent abuse by a monopoly. Apple aint a monopoly and notepad et al arent a major part of the computer and advertising revenues.

Dont get me wrong i really dont give a shit but i also think that you are over reacting to this Kris. MS have abused monopolies and only open up stuff under threat of fines/ legal action and then only very slowly.

I sure as hell dont think opera have much claim and its pretty funny but so what, let them try it on.

Its really not that much different to telecom orcon slingshot etc.

Reelin 'em in! :>




http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=0

More people still use NETSCAPE than use Opera

Opera is apparently a really good browser though isn't it? Was always the most standard compliment and had certain features well before they appeared on other browsers.

Perhaps they lost their window of opportunity by charging for the browser when there was no real competition to IE. Well that and the fact that websites were designed to work in bung IE.

Um, anyway if anything, that argues why IE shouldn't be bundled... Average plebs just don't upgrade despite better products being available. That's a problem for both website developers and other browser vendors especially when the main offering is so broken.

Average plebs just want to turn on their shiny new computer and get on the fucking internet.

"Download browser? What the fuck is a browser? Where the fuck is my E icon?"

What the LOL?

MS should be able to do whatever the fuck they want with their own software. Opera unhappy with IE8 being bundled with an OS? Build your own fucking OS, fucktards!

So are you guys happy to let Xtra do whatever the fuck it wants with *its* lines?

I think the problem is that its about 10-15 years too late. When they came up with this anti-trust thing, half the internet browsers people had came on disks or CD's.

To be fair, credit to Microsoft for shitting all over their plans, legally.

Quite a different situation.

There are differences but its the same kind of thing. Monopoly situation , stifle competition, offer inferior service and then delay and fuck with your competition once you finally get your shit together.

The EUs intention is to create competition that had been stifled, it is *kinda* late as things have moved on from that particular problem but that is the nature of law and technology (slow/fast).

Historically, the way the telecoms industry grew is what led to the clusterfuck it became. (i.e. infrastructure largely built with crown spending under a crown entity, practically given away to a corporate).

The second half of your post is why I said antitrust legislation needs to be dragged into the modern era.

Lets say Ford sell 90% of the cars on the road. Should they be forced to stop putting car stereos in their cars to give car stereo manufacturers a go? A stereo (browser) isn't strictly necessary for the operation of the car (operating system), but it's considered something you can add or replace yourself if you so desire.

I disagree, a browser is a very important part of the computer for most users, advertisers etc and has many flow on issues for other software.

Given that users dont often change the default settings you would always be directed to MS partner pages, your searches would be directed to MS advertisers etc etc.

I like what the EU does as opposed to the US, in cases like this and other like reverse engineering and protection for people who break hardware locking. It keeps innovation, freedoms etc going nicely.

Theres more to it of course but i cant be arsed at the moment.

Just so im clear, you dont mind MS doing what ever it wants with its OS, including software patents etc?

And you dont like antitrust actions?

On the very odd occasion I sit down at a computer without an Internet connection, which is essentially very similar to having no browser, I always have the same thought enter my head.

"What the hell did I ever do on these things before the Internet was around?"

..

..

Windows doesn't even come with QBASIC installed anymore, so I can't childishly amuse myself with 10 PRINT "LOL NO INTERNET" 20 GOTO 10 scripts

It's all well and good using analogies from different industries and technologies, but the service provision of the Internet and the tools required to utilise it are in a unique position, and such comparisons will prove only partially useful.

In a recent study done by Google, 8% of people could distinguish a browser from a search engine. Most responded that their browser was "google" or "yahoo".

Microsoft should be able to install their browser on their own operating system. Clearly Google has the lion's share of search, in the EU over 30% of users have Firefox installed so there is no monopoly to break.

My only gripe with IE was when it was not standards compliant, now it is, and thats got absolutely nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with focussing on what developers were screaming for.

Opera is the worst browser on the planet, it has lots of bugs that mean it is NOT standards compliant. You have to pay for it in a world of Mozilla/IE/Webkit and that doesnt even result in innovation, security and stability! I dont know a single developer that has Opera installed even for testing.

The US patent system is fucked. They are granting patents left right and center, if I were any tech company in the US I would be SHIT SCARED someone like Amazon was going to come along and patent "One click" fucking purchase and grab royalties.

At Tomizone we're applying for patents like animals to make sure nobody else goes and patents something out from under us, like this ridiculous one two days ago:



Basically they've patented a client that scans SSID's, finds one it knows and logs you into it using WISPr (a WBF open standard)

Otherwise known as the "Boingo Client".

I was reading about that patent on slashdot the other day. In the thread people were posting links to all the absurd patents that have been granted in the US. All of them very much

My favourite still has to be the patent for the method of exercising a cat by waving a laser pointer.

Eh?
I thought Opera usually aced the acid tests- not that I use it, only ever installed in back when it first came out.

Even IE8 aces Acid2. Acid3 has so much stuff in it now that most web developers dont use. I want to see implementation of HTML5 and CSS3 over Acid3.

Before Firefox and before Google and Microsoft cared, Opera was the only one singing the praises of standards because they had to have some point of difference.

But Opera is LADEN with bugs, even simple padding bugs.

Now you'll find Mozilla, Microsoft and Webkit talk, Opera stands in the hall and gets told whats happening.

I don't get it. Are we going to get anti-trust issues with Windows Firewall, Windows Defender, Outlook Express, etc?

Recycling Bin might stop people using a 3rd party undeletion utility?

What makes web browsers so different? Windows is a package, not just a start menu and windows explorer (which spelled doom for XTG).

Because the browser affects so much more than those other things.

Search results = advertising revenue etc etc

Its not really that difficult.

I don't get the MS sympathisers. They will fuck you up the arse with a power pole if they can.

Their browser was broken, insecure and non-standards compliant for so long. They broke the web and make it VERY difficult for other browsers to compete, not just because they weren't bundled with the OS but because they didn't render pages correctly - because MS set a broken standard by virtue of being a defacto standard.

Okay, this whole thing has come a bit late and MS has cleaned up their act a bit this time... but c'mon... really?

But MS have moved on to fucking up other things for now...

So just like anti-MS zealots then, who usually base their arguments on horribly outdated data points?


LOL CLIPPY AM I RITE!?!?!?!

yeah remember back in the day how XtraMsn.co.nz (default homepage for old IE) used be the most popular NZ site. i remember someone telling me that just one of the banner ads on there would generate something like $3m revenue per year

Contrary to the impression I give on these forums, I'm not an anti-MS zealot.

Was mostly joking in that autosave thread...

Windows Firewall is incredibly basic and offers pretty much zero features (as with Defender) and Outlook Express/Windows Live Mail have been unbundled into Windows Live downloads for just this type of reason.

Hell you can already get EU versions that don't have WMP either.

It's ridiculous.

Hmmm no IE means no Windows update.

MS will just bundle some new auto update program that installs IE anyway or the they will mangle it in with automatic updates.

Most of these anti trust cases just sounds like a complicated tax to me.

vista doesnt use ie for update.

That, and no IE simply means no iexplore.exe, pretty much everything else is still in there.

Why not a mandatory startup (first use) screen for "competitively important" software (e.g. browser, media player) that opens a webpage with:

YOU WANTS TO USE INTERWEBSES? Choose which software you'd like to use.
a. Internet Explorer (which happens to be the bundled for Windows):
Marketing speal

b. Mozilla Firefox
Marketing speal

c. Apple Safari (which happens to be the bundled for OSX)
Marketing speal

d. Buttfuck-whos-the-whatsit?
Marketing speal


Any OS has to display them on first use, auto-ranked by popularity, seamless download and install for whatevers you choose.

G-Dub, this is M$ we're talking about here. Your rosy cheeked optimism has no place when there are other companies to crush and monopolies built around outdated business models to be maintained.

Take your customer centric common sense elsewhere.

Im pretty sure thats what everyone is suggesting.

Personally, I'd just have:

a) Install IE

b) Web search for 'web browser'

:>

If i didnt push family, work people, friends etc to install firefox then 95% of them would just stick to using ie.

not that there is a huge amount of things wrong with ie but its only now that there is some serious competition for ie that MS have sat up and taken notice and got something halfway decent for the average user.

I'm not suggesting MS should do it themselves. I'm suggesting ALL operating systems (e.g. Apple with Safari) should have to do it by law. Access to the internet is a significant piece of infrastructure and simple competitive choice should be required.

a reminder of why ie rules right?

You > Any Clue > 0

Having a quick look at my security bulletins we have 41 FF alerts since March and 30 for IE

Dude I totally agree, I was just being facetious. Kinda the same way that you pick a search provider, you should pick your media player, browser etc when you install the OS.

oh yeah I do I use opera

MS are the only guys that have abused their position. I just can't see why you'd tell apple "sorry you can't bundle safari or quicktime or ilife even with your OS cos it's anti-competitive" when no one is unhappy with those products. Nor are have they ever been tied to the OS the same way Explorer was. Nor have they ever posed a threat to webstandards or pushed themselves into markets they have no business in. They just do what they do and satisfy their users. If something better comes along, users can and do install it. VLC and firefox regularly find themselves on macs and users are free to chose the software that works best for them. So why punish Apple and it's users for MS's tactics? I understand a need to consistency, but it's *different* with MS. Although I think this whole thing came 2 OS's too late.

Ok, since you continue on your absolutely abortionate understanding on Anti-trust laws, which are there to stop anti-competitive behaviour through leverage of a privileged or empowered position:

- It is NOTHING to do with whether the product is good or not.
- It is NOTHING to do with web standards
- it is NOTHING to do with "pushing themselves into markets they have no business in" << what???

NONE of the above factored in the Microsoft Anti-Trust case. Opera is a whinging minnow that is being crushed not only by Microsoft's desktop dominance, but Firefox (with a much more successful, industry-leading model), Chrome (with Google's monopolistic activities using their search dominance to press their browser on users) and Safari (pre-installed on OSX).

Internet Explorer facilitated the rapid growth of the internet, you have Microsoft and Internet Explorer to thank for the internet's rapid proliferation BECAUSE IT WAS BUNDLED. If every user had to install a CD or command-line FTP a browser down before they could browse the internet it would not exist as you know it today. Geddit?

Windows and Internet Explorer were developed for corporate networks and intranets. They were so good the internet and personal computing took off and they were used in a way they were not designed, particularly from a security stand-point. They were designed to work in an internal intranet and based on DOS, not linux, with has no inherent security protection. It's lineage, not some amazing corporate brilliance by the other guys, put it in that position.

Given Microsofts huge dominant position and relationship with their key customers which, as much as it must pain you to hear, IS NOT YOU. It is large corporates in the US that are adverse to change. They couldnt just turn around and make nimble changes like their infinitesimally small competitors.

Apple in the meanwhile was so inept they relied on Microsoft to build them a browser! Netscape and others were the whinging geeks in the corner that always got picked on and eventually crushed at school.

If you're going to be a Fanboi with no real historical perspective at least keep your posts to "YEAH, STEVE JOBS FOR PRESIDENT!!!!111oneone"

that is a quality rant

Whoa whoa I'm no fanboy or apple worshipper. I know it looks like that sometimes, but really I don't give a toss and I don't even own any apple products! Well a keyboard...

Okay, you gave me a couple of history lessons there but I wasn't saying that's what the antitrust case is about, but that through their past behaviour, they have bought the attention on themselves. You piss people off that's what happens.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/25/microsoft_browser_choice_windows_eu/

I suppose anyone in this forum will have read this by now anyway, but thought I'd post it.