China says use of force against Taiwan may be 'unavoidable'

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103476,00.html



This could get very messy...

I wonder if any other countries will try and interfere. I don't think the US will be able to say any thing if China invades.

You must be kidding, George Bush is a war hungry mongrel and would love some more action.

why would the US all of a sudden start playing on a level playing field. Of course they'll say something.

They would protest, put in place sanctions etc. But in a few years time china would be back in favour, granted favoured nation trading status and the US would be complaining about some other govt who has done something nowhere near as bad, while talking about the battle for democracy and freedom the whole way.

Yeah I would expect protests and possibly even veiled threats by the US which will show them to be the great hypocrites that they are.

From the article.

I wonder how the US would have felt if China had decided to deploy a small force in the middle east to reduce tensions late last year prior to the US invading Iraq.

That kind of the action by the US will only inflame the situation. China has more right to use force asgainst Taiwan than the US did against Iraq.

I see it as more than a matter of a 'right to use force'

The simple reality is that if China invades Taiwan millions of people will be killed, probably tens of millions. I hope the US uses whatever influence it has to avoid this outcome.

So stylin, they are hypocrites if they do nothing and THEY will inflame the situation if they offer Taiwan self defence measures, please explain.

They are hypocites with respect to accusing China and Russia of having supplied Saddam weapons and also in so far as they can take unilateral action against Iraq and criticise any dissenting countries yet still see fit to interfere when it suits them. Perhaps if China wasn't a communist country. They would be better off adopting diplomatic measures. Are the US really willing to risk war with China? It clearly isn't Bush and Cos place to be offering protection to Taiwan.

They always have, why change now? Do you not support there right to indepence? If not why side with China, why not say Japan has the right to rule them again?

eh, it is perfectable acceptable for the US (or anyone) to give the taiwanese the resources to defend themselves, how could you think otherwise. Do you think they should just be left to the mercy of china?

The US shouldn't have a determining role in whether Taiwan wins its independence. I am merely saying that it's not USA's place to interfere with China and Taiwan. Imagine the fuss if China had phyically interferred with the invasion of Iraq.

Justahalf Iraq was left to the mercy of the coalition based on trumped up evidence and lies. The US complained about Iraq having received help from Russia yet they want to help out Taiwan. I think the US wanting to help has more to do with their foreign policy and wanting control in key areas than out of concern for Taiwan. If China choose to invade they will irrespective of how much protection the US can offer. Perhaps they'll get another Vietnam or maybe they're still angry with China over that.

Ps I don't agree with the action that China wants to take but I don't think that it's the place of the US to interfere.

The US has supported Taiwan since 1949 what makes you think they should not now?

and try sticking to this topic, Iraq has nothing to do with it.

whos place is it then?

Someone has to do what need to be done to hopefully prevent the slaughter of millions...............somtimes the US needs a pat on the back, not automatic condemnation that some seem to immediatley grant them

The answer to war is not 'more war'.

Maybe the US can learn from Korea and Vietnam and try to pursue non-violent solutions.

Do they not try diplomatic solutions before wading in?

Id say they do............be a lot less expensive for a start, and we all know America frequently starts wars for economic reasons..........

Mutant, go back and look at the first post, who's advocating force?

I think the Taiwanese people want independance from China - whether they get it or not is a different story... I hope it doesn't come to war - If China invades the US has two options...

1. Back down and lose face to keep the peace
2. Fully back Taiwan, and get drawn into war with the worlds next super power, nuclear armed and with the worlds largest airforce, and standing army....

And as for having nothing to do with Iraq - this has everything to do with Iraq! The US having previously walked all over the UN and waging a war of aggression on another sovereign country means that they can't exactly say that China can't do the same.... Exactly the reason I was against the Iraq war... Its amusing to see people defending the US for invading Iraq and then critisising China for thinking about doing exactly the same thing....

Yes, but they really need to be committed to these solutions.

Ronin: I realise China "started it", but that's no reason for the US to rush in, guns blazing (literally) and make matters a lot worse. It's happened several times before.

But china are not threatening force for the same reasons are they, Taiwan is no threat to them, Taiwan are not ignoring UN security council resolutions etc etc.

On the basis of your argument Japan has more right than China to take back Taiwan.

Except in the case of Taiwan there are actually weapons of mass destruction pointing at mainland China... Not to mention they want to go nuclear... At least in the case of China they can actually say they are pre-emtively taking out a threat....

http://www.rense.com/general44/save.htm

Mutant, they arn't rushing in, they have been there since the start, just cause you read it in the paper today doesn't mean it started today.

Well, I'm talking about a reaction by the US if China do decide to use the force they're talking about (not stationing troops, etc).

I don't believe they should act with violence against violence. It will only make the situation worse.

So you would just prefer China to use violence?

I would prefer no one to use violence.

If China elect to use violence, I think the situation could be made a lot worse by others interfering with violent means.

Taiwan has the right to ask whoever they want for assistance, and as i said the US has been there since the start knowing full well it could develop into this situation at some stage.



You didn't answer this Mutant.[/quote]

Yes they have that right, and I'm not arguing that the US (and UN) shouldn't assist Taiwan. I just don't believe violence is the answer.



I'm not really sure how this applies to my argument?

sorry that question of mine was for Haga.

well seing its a referendum, does not mean they will become independent and id say its disputable to say that they do want independence, my taiwanese friends dont want independence from china.

China has only threatened as it has since 1949 that if they choose to become independent china will invade, which has alot of legitimacy to it. China I beleive is patient enough to wait for taiwan to join back with china when the time is right. But nows the time to invade the US does not have enough forces or hardware to fight china as its over stretched in Iraq

Sorry you lost me there... Ask away

To be honest I can’t fuckin believe that some of you are actually trying to say that the US avoiding any possible hint of hypocrisy is more important than the lives of tens of millions of people.

I mean get a grip for fucks sake.

haga041, for example your post is nothing short of absurd.

There is no option for the US to ‘back down and keep the peace’, Taiwan will defend themselves regardless of the action the US takes. What the US should do is everything they can to stop anything from starting in the first place.

If the US is being hypocritical in this case then so are you, but at least they are consistently supporting freedom and democracy while you on the other hand seem to consistently support brutality and oppression.

-

oh and btw, there is not going to be any US vs China war, Taiwan is not worth that to either of them and they would not let it happen.

Very true, the US prefers to restrict her conflicts to small nations crippled by years of sanctions, who are likely to offer very little resistance.

I agree that the lives of the Taiwanese people are more important thatn hypocracy in this instance.

why are there going to be millions of deaths? china doesnt want that, i thinks its also debatable as to whether the US would intervene or not, the US doesnt want a strong china so they might see it as a chance to bring it back down a bit, or they might see china as being more important than taiwan and leave it to the chinese.

trapper get of your hight horse and stop trying to call everyone anti american please try to actualy debate the issue

What is so absurd about my post? Where did I say I support repression and brutality? I think its time you get a grip...

Before I go any further I should state that I believe the Iraqi's AND Taiwanese should be allowed their independence....



Okay then Taiwan declares independance and China mobilises for immediate invasion... There is no question that Taiwan would fall if it stands alone against China.... This means that the US would have two choices, either support Taiwan and face a war that will only have losers, or back down and let China have it....

.

Trapper I don't ever want to get into a personal sledging match with you, but you really seem to talk out of your arse a lot... I support neither China in this case, nor the US in the case of Iraq... I don't support the invasion of ANY nation by another.... I thought wars of agression were condemned as the highest of war crimes by the judge at Nuremberg.... Maybe he should have gotten a grip too, and let all those well meaning Nazi's go....

"We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy."

- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel L. Jackson (Nuremberg Trials)

Taiwan will be no cake walk for China, there would be massive losses on both sides.

The reason I said you seem to consistently support brutality and oppression is because you were against the war in Iraq, and now it seems that you think China should be left to do what it wants with Taiwan without any outside interference.

btw: Where are your demands for China to get a UNSC resolution??

Ronin you asked me to state why I thought the US were being hypocrits. I used Iraq as an example so it is relevant. At any rate I doubt the US would want another war while they are having so much fun in Iraq and are also having difficulties with the North Koreans.

As for supporting Taiwan the US have done that for their own reasons just how they supported South Korea and Vietnam. They don't like communists and no dioubt thought they had a moral right to stop the spread of communism. Perhaps the UN should get involved rather than our self appointed world cop that only gets involved when it suits.

The US has passed legislation that says if China ever attacks Taiwan the US will go to its aid militarily.

This was passed in the 1980s (I forget the name of the Act).

Interesting thread.

Seems some of you are a little misguided about the whole Taiwan - China situation and just how entangled in the whole affair the US really is, amongst other things.

Firstly, China would get absolutely screwed if it invaded Taiwan without the use of tactical nuclear strikes. China has a massive army and an increasingly advanced number of tanks and aircraft but its ability to deploy troops and equipment via amphibious means is extremely limited. It simply does not possess the ability to project its massive armed forces in anything like the numbers it could to say, Vietnam, to a well defended off shore Island like Taiwan.

Taiwan is extremely well defended. It has very very sophisticated missle systems, fighter aircraft and fortifications.

In an all out assault, China would win, don't get me wrong, but the losses on both sides (and the loss of life to the Taiwanese people) would be absolutely unimaginable. The likely event of US involvement just complicates this scenario even more.

I have faith that the Taiwanese are not stupid enough to declare independence and that the Chinese are not stupid enough to invade.

As to the morality of this whole issue I haven't really considered that in any great detail - I think it's pretty tough. Geo politically, flare ups in that region are great to watch but let's just hope it never goes past anything like 'wargames'

looking at a few polls the taiwanese are basically evenly split over the independence issue anyway so a vote would cause more problems than solutions. Until at least 70-80% want independence it is a bad idea as it would lead to instability that would outweigh any advantages of independence. This situation has been the case for a long time (50 years) and although not ideal to the chinese govt the sitaution is reasonably stable. The chinese have far more to lose tahn gain by attacking, as do the taiwanese and probably the US. Shitloads of defence is definitely the best option and who cares who provides it.

If Taiwan is evenly split over independence then let them hold a binding referendum.

I wonder if those polls have an “assuming China doesn’t invade us” clause.

What I mean is that many people who would love independence would probably vote against it due to the risk of China invading.

Perhaps you're right Trapper but it seems that the country is split over the idea so why risk war if only 50% want independence.

I though the same thing too trapper. The reasons for not wanting independence are more important than simply the for/against percentages. As the chinese economy gets better the independence supporters are likely to decrease not increase too.

I saw a bit on this on the Telly and the report said its the first time China had issued such a threat in 3 years

Which makes me wonder if this is posturing by China in a slow news week?

Huh? Where did I say I think China should get free reign to do what ever it wants? Didn't I just say that I don't support a Chinese invasion of Taiwan? Maybe I should give you my password so you can post for me as you seem to know what I'm thinking.... I was only saying what I think would happen in the event of the Taiwanese declaring independance, not what I would like to have happen....

In the event of an invasion any direct American involvement would only escalate things - a risk I'm not sure they would be willing to take...

When you said that the US shouldn't be interfering in the China-Taiwan issue because they booted Saddam out, I took that to mean that you didn't think the US should interfere with the China-Taiwan issue... My mistake.

oh and btw, I don't need your password to post from you, I'm the site admin remember!

No what I was saying is that the US can't really go around telling others not to do what they have just done themselves...



haha if thats the case then post away neo

Ahh… now I see what caused the confusion.

It appears that you see the liberation from a brutal oppressive regime as equivalent to the imposition of a brutal oppressive regime. Personally I see these as the complete opposite.

Anyway let’s be clear here. Do you agree that the US should use whatever influence it has to avoid China invading Taiwan?

Yes they are opposites, but they were/are going to be both brought about by the same thing - invasion by a foreign power... It is war that I am against, wars of agression more specifically... And please don't tell me the reason the US invaded Iraq was to liberate the Iraqis, I thought it was to prevent WMD from getting into the hands of Al Quaeda? (Amongst other things...)

Sure I hope the US can use diplomacy in avoiding a Chinese invasion - however I think they kind of burned that one when they invaded Iraq... They can't go around telling others not to do what they have just done themselves!

China invade taiwan... ?!? that doen't make any sense.
it like saying New Zealand invading rangitoto island...

Since when has Taiwan been an independent country!!!! I used to be able to name one country that thought it was (that cause i live in said country), but right now well i can't name any (but I know there are some)

So stop talking about a chineese invasion, or an invasion of a foreign power. Taiwan IS part of China. They would just be sending in sercurity forces to maintain sabilty.

Things will get very interesting if china decides to quell the rebellion. Its not only gonna be a matter of the US getting invloved. NZ would have to stand up to and pick a side too

anyway china wouldn't go in anyways.. and the taiwaneese don't wan't to be independent anyways...

Everyone prefers the ambiguois status quo... where everyone pretends things are okay.. This is the best way to keep things... starting talking independence for taiwan, and well losts of people will die, and it would throw the whole world into a mess....

WWIII maybe.... but hopefully people will have the sense not to rock the boat

Neil if Taiwan declared independance, they obviously would want to be a country seperate from China.... If the majority of Rangitotoans wanted to be an independant state from New Zealand, I wouldn't support a New Zealand invasion there either...

would you support the police going to rangitoto to arrest people that refused to pay their taxes?

You mean today, or in the event of those uppity rangitotoans declaring independance from new zealand?

both

If they are deliberately avoiding taxes then I guess... As long as they don't single out only people living on Rangitoto and target all new zealanders who are avoiding paying their share... In the event of independance then I the police wouldn't have any power to make arrests....

wouldn't have the power!?! I'm gonna declare my house an independant country and start growing pot there.. of course pot will be legal in my country.. and when the cops try and arrest my i'll just tell them haga041 said they didn't have the power to do it

The police will never get involved in people not paying taxes.

And Rangitoto is hardly teh same scenario as Taiwan is it.

why not?

and since when has not paying taxes not been a crime?

or yeah, and haga.. the first part of your post suggests that it would be okay for china to go into taiwan now... but not if they delcare independence.... So if china invaded tommorrow things would be okay?

Wicked... can I get one of your passports? I fail to see your point though... I don't see how one person and their house constitutes a nation...

why not? what do i have to be an island or something...?

please tell my what i need to be a nation.. ? lol

haga041, neil_armstrong has led you way off course with that ridiculous analogy. The only thing Taiwan and Rangitoto have in common is that they are both islands.

It would have been more accurate to ask if you supported the Aussies coming over here to claim some taxes off us! (although admittedly still very inaccurate hahaha)

Do a little reading about the whole situation: http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm

I don't know exactly I haven't looked into it to be honest... I would say a declaration of independance of the people living in country from their overseers? How did the East Timorese do it?

hahah yeah i know, i was going to put price of fish in my first response... but he apparantly walked on the moon a while back and I wanted to ask if i could borrow his moonrock sometime...

I didn't say not paying tax wasn't a crime, i said the police wouldn't get involved, the IRD have enough powers of there own to fuck you over without having to get the police involved.

trapper, whatever.. there are Maori people on rangitoto, and linguistic/archeological/genetic evidence also points to the facts that Maori people more than likely come from Taiwan... so thats Is something they have in common.. Maori peopl

By having a third of their population murdered by the Indonesians and their militia allies...

an if they got ordered in appear in court and they failed... Well isn't it standard practise to issue arrests warrents...

The IRD can't arrest people, only the Police and Fishery Officers can

east timor did it by getting other countries to agree with them...

although it took a very very long time before anybody listened...

No Neil, it's a civil case, therefore if you don't turn up then judgement would go against you, no need to get someone to drag your sorry ass into court.

next

plus indoneesia thought it was fair enough

okay.. sorry maybe taxes was a bad example....

lets go back to the growing pot in my house example...

The point remains the same

Neil where is your banana republic, I'm moving in

I think neil's doing an excellent job of demonstrating the ridiculous nature of nations and nationalism.

However, those are probably deeper rooted issues than what we're talking about here. Taiwan, if they so choose, fit with our traditional definition of a nation (they have a history, same language, clearly defined boundaries etc. etc.)

Getting back to the initial discussion, I think a lot of people underestimate what can be done with non-violent means. In the first case, I don't think China needs to use force, and in the second case should China choose to use force, I don't think the US has to. That doesn't mean that China should accept whatever Taiwan does, or that the US should accept whatever China does.

It means that they disagree, but choose not to go to war. In our society, if two individuals have a disagreement, it's reprehensible for them to resort to violence. There's a good chance that one or both of them will end up in jail if they do. It doesn't matter how hard they've tried to settle their differences in a non-violent manner, violence is simply not tollerated.

Why is this different between two countries? There are many means to solve problems without resorting to war, or any sort of force. And it's not just a matter of sanctions, or other agressive solutions (they can be part of the solution though). It's about diplomacy.

This was something Clinton really worked on, but it is apparently a completely foreign concept to the Bush administration.

Why is it that the US support Taiwan against China yet they basically authorised the invasion of East Timor by turning a blind eye. Talk about having double standards.

Ok, back to your original point,



Taiwan was an independent country from the 16th century until about 1895, then it was ruled by Japan until the end of world war II, then briefly by China until 1949, then the current standoff started.

As i said before, under that basis Japan has more right than china to claim Taiwan, now that would start WWIII

I'm not saying that Taiwan doesn't have the right to be independent..
I personally wouldn't support it tho.. I prefer the status quo..

and anyways.. china has already invade taiwan in the past... you know when they went in there and took over from all the native taiwanese (which are related to Maori & other pacific islanders)

If i was gonna support taiwanese independence I would kick out all the chinese that moved there after the revolution

the US does NOT recognise taiwan as an independent country... (althougt somebody didn't tell G.W Bush that when he first got selected, but he has been told now)

if taiwan declares independence then dipolmacy has failed.. the US will deal with this issue by making sure Taiwan never declares independence

Neil - if your house is its own country the govt would revoke your citrizenshikp and every time you leave you will be arrested for illegal entry and thrown in jail.

[

Things will get very interesting if china decides to quell the rebellion. Its not only gonna be a matter of the US getting invloved. NZ would have to stand up to and pick a side too[/quote]

like THAT would concern anyone...

I'm already a dual citizen with 2 passports, I'll just enter on my other passport....

Justahalf -- > what makes you think they would respect my sovereignity....

IF China were able to stage an invasion of Taiwan, we should be very afraid. For them to control the Formosa Strait and land amphibious forces on Formosa thre would need to be significant advancements to the level of Blue Water navy they have.

China with a true Blue water navy is a threat to the whole South China Sea. And the resources contain therein.

Next to fall would be the Spartley Isle.....

sounds like the domino effect that does Red Shoes and that does scare me

an expansionist China has been my biggest concern, in a wold political sense for the last few years. Since they started acquiring Russian diesel subs, silent and very deadly, and other blue water vessels.

while acknowledged as being numerically superior, they are closing the technology gap quickly - take the new J-10 fighter, ironically it is with the help of the US ally, Israel.

Not to mention that any force invading Taiwan is going to have a huge impact on all countries around the world. Poof, there goes you're PS2 and XBox CPU's, along with RAM and pretty much all semi conducters.
The only sensible course of action for the US is to tread lightly on this because any incursion into Taiwan will have far reaching economic effects.
So ffs, all the people using this as an excuse to get their jibes into the US.
Please, shut the fuck up.

China doesnt want to invade Taiwan, this is the last thing they want to do. For much of the same reason they would never expand militarily into southeast asia - their business networks. Who controls 80% of Indonesia's GDP or Thailands or Malaysia's? The overseas Chinese.

One of the main reasons for China's rise has been these people sending investment back into the country. So why on earth would they jeopodise this system and try and militarily expand to 'get resources' and result in hostile environments for their overseas people. Hell people might even get pissed off that they own 50% of dunedins commercial buildings. Whats the point of destroying cities, when you effectively own them anyway and the result would be an economic disaster for all?