ATTN Vad-D aka Military Hardware Discussion ITT

No politics, just hardware. Save those discussions for the relevant thread please. I will ask a Mod to remove anything that doesn't apply.


So what's stood out for being really cool shit for you lately?


I'm a big fan of Future Weapons on Discovery channel and that is my only real source of info about new hardware these days. They've had some real interesting eps about non lethal weapons, the latest evolution of artillery (smart MLRS) and guns that allow you to shoot around corners (as featured in Wanted).

But I'm keen to know more...

Also what's the latest haps with New Zealand's defence updates, when do we get our new choppers? Are our frigates ever gonna get Harpoon missles or some other decent SSM's to make them an actual threat in modern combat? When do our new OPV's and IPV's get delivered to the navy?

Also for anyone else, post some Hardware that gets your juices flowing at the moment...

From my last conversation with Vad's I believe he was working on getting Horses recommissioned into the service.

Theres a nice airborne laser being tested atm.

I don't know if you've seen the laser for destroying artillery shell in flight? Similar to that but air borne with a range of up to 20km.

'plausible deniability'

I saw an ep on FW about that. Looked nasty, as it basically "fried" anything in it's lethal zone.

In reference to war, which is essentialy the mutilation and annihilation of human beings, that is sick (i mean literally sick, not sick as in "cool"

pff it how something is used that can be sick or not. The actual science can be admired as human achievement.

Would you think a technology that can protect people (including civilians) from incoming shells or perhaps even extraterrestrial objects is sick?

Clearly not.

There are *some* things that have little or no peaceful use or advancement but they are the exception.

Oh for fucks sake.


GET OUT

HMNZS Southland had harpoon missile hardware up the front, rather than the usual 4.5 gun. From what i understand at the time it was considered unecessary for the role an NZDF Leander or ANZAC class frigates should they be required to be part of a larger fleet. Alot of focus was placed on sub detecting systems and suitable anti sub weapons, followed by anti aircraft capability then ship to land defence, more so than ship to ship weaponry that the harpoons are used for. Vadz will know more detail, this is coming from what i learned as a rating/chef, so only a quite basic knowledge.

I saw on TV a few weeks ago this totally cool crowd control (laser I think)device. As soon as it's beam hits you it feels like your face is being burnt off.

They used it on a crowd of rowdy skinhead types (Army dudes) and you should have seen those f**kers run!

Totally non-lethal unless you stay in its beam then I think it actually will burn your face off.

War stuff is cool

Thats actually one of the things i dont like.

Its basically a microwave laser.

I can see some uses for it but i can see a lot of misuse for it. That said i support the taser and other less lethal devices.

no she didn't, she had an IKARA ASW torpedo launcher. Harpoon is an anti-ship missile, not an ASW weapon.

ahh, i stand corrected, though i am aware that harpoon is an anti ship missile, which you would have seen upon reading the rest of my post

Talking with some senior Naval officers including the future Captain of Otago (one of the OPVs) he said the Navy is actually moving away from carrying missiles on board the ships because it is deemed too aggresive and prevents the ships going into a number of foreign ports. Take from that what you will but seems to me more like a peace nik labour directive.

The first RNZAF NH90 is being built as we speak, should probably be delivered sometime next year. Im not sure why we didnt piggy back on the Aussie deal and get some of ours made in Aussie.

The new training and light utility helicopter has been selected. Were getting 5 Agusta 109s. They will be used for pilot training and other tasks such as SAR and work with special forces. http://www.agustawestland.com/products01_01.php?id_product=3

The first of our two 757s to be modified for cargo purposes has flown in the States. Theyre getting fitted with a strengthened floor and a large cargo door on the side.

The RNZAF is looking for a new aircraft to replace the Beech King Airs in the multi engine training and VIP transport roles. Some possibilities include DASH 8-200s or ATRs as used by Air NZ Link partners Air Nelson and Mt Cook.

The C-130s are currently undergoing a life extension programme. A few structural upgrades and a new glass cockpit.

The Army are in the evaluation phase of some new UAVs for the artillery. Also there is the possibility of an upgrade to the Steyrs in the pipeline.

oops,me.

I dispute this. Carrying Sea Sparrow isn't exactly going to provoke anybody, and the Anzac self defence upgrade that's on the LTDP is probably going to involve missiles as well.

The OPVs/IPVs don't carry missiles because they were derived from a Maritime Patrol Review, and missiles weren't part of the functional requirement.

Re: the Steyr - definitely getting enhanced.

Hehe. Maybe... umm... Seasprites... Collins class... Tigers...

Delays much?

Yeah, that Aussie Seasprite program was something else! I mean, take a well known, in service, mature ASW helicopter and so fuck it up that years and hundreds of millions later you give up trying to make them work...


Meanwhile, in NZ we got them into service no fuss whatsoever.



But what we REALLY need is an increase in numbers and equipment for a third infantry battalion, and to get the second batallion actually somewhere near its manpower TOE. How the hell we can do that given most people hate living in the middle of nowhere, and just use the army as a trades training scheme and bail as soon as they can, beats me.

I dont disagree with you, its just what they were saying. He wasnt referring to the OPVs either, we were discussing Te Mana before its deployment to the Gulf.

A rail system on the steyr would go a long way to making it alot more functional.

Like this http://homepage.mac.com/topcover/blog/images/STEYR-AUG-A3_thumb.jpg

Its a shame it turned into such an abortion. Too much high tech equipment that didnt like talking to each other. Auckland Westpac rescue is having some very similar problems atm on their BK. Auto pilot is completely on the piss and it seems to be in for maintanence every second day.

We do have a 3rd infantry battalion, theyre in Iraq atm..

But yea pay definetly needs to come more inline with Aussie if weve got any chance of retaining skilled personal.

2/1 RNZIR is in Christchurch, hardly the "middle of nowhere", and Army attrition is lower than corporate average.

They just spent 10s of millions on the MRS, you know

You are saying the SAS are in Iraq?

Also, attrition in the SKILLED trades - and especially in RNZAF - is much larger than in riflemen - so it's not a case of retaining skilled personnel

I meant "much lower" than riflemen heh.

Do you reckon a form of ROTC for university students would be a winner? You know, three years of varsity fees and a decent living allowance paid by the army in return for territorial commitments whilst a student and a year full time service for each year of fees paid once you leave university?

Yep. Would be fantastic. Also they need to make it easier for people leaving the force to return as reservists. And they need to ADVERTISE MORE!!

No its a common joke in the Army, the 3rd infantry battalion is all the Kiwi boys that have left and are working as private security contractors over there now.

Also Re the ROTC style thing the Army already has this, its called the Kippenberger scheme for RF Officer Cadets and Malone scheme for TF OCdts. The RF ones do a degree at Massey, get paid regular OCdt salary and they live on camp at Linton. Over the summer holidays they take part in exercises with the TF OCdts on TFCC. Once they have graduated they attend NZCC (New Zealand Commissioning Course) and then have a return of service.

Depends on your definition of skilled. Sure an RNZAF avionics tech is more skilled at fixing avionics but I bet he couldn't wheel and deal a platoon in a close country contact.

temper temper!

And neither can a private with 3 years in...

Attrition is highest in the first few years, when pers aren't skilled.

However there's a huge problem: there was a hiring freeze from 90-92 or so, which means once all the guys with 20 years up who started in 88 leave, there's going to be a gap of experienced SNCOs.

Yep, but it's a very small percentage of overall officers. I think there were only 6-7 Kippenbergers this year.

Wasn't the number of dead from warfare last century something approaching 100 million?
It's all great fun until somebody looses an eye.
Haven't we all wondered how on earth men from this country left to participate in WWI on the basis it would be an adventure? But we still seem to think that military hardware is cool.
I'm not disputing that weapons are necessary, just questioning the attitude that somehow there is fun involved in this.

Unlike the US though, a degree isnt needed to be an Officer in the NZDF. 7 Kippys is still close to 20% of the number that make it though NZCC.

Wow just finished watching a thing on Nat Geo about a Nat Geo team embeded with some Green Berets in Afghanistan. Fucking IEDs would scare the shit outa ya. As their most snr NCO said "I'll fight 100 of them [taliban] all day long, but IEDs, I dont want to have anything to do with them, its a cowards way of fighting".

That from a country with cruise missiles, drones, aerial bombardment and now robots?

Oh and land mines...

Shock and awe meets fear and impotence.

But it brings up a point relevant to the thread. Technology is great but not for the sake of itself. You still have to identify your targets and of course hearts and minds dont hurt either.

Nah that’s the number communist governments killed of their own people. The number killed in wars is much less.

So because it might be "much less" it can be overlooked and we can blame the communists instead (who clearly deserve blame). Funny how defensive some people get when the virtue of war is questioned.

Heh. 1000 years ago crossbows were a coward's way of fighting. 700 years ago, firearms were a coward's way of fighting.

Maybe the Green Berets should put aside their firearms and use swords

I'd still think it could be substantially expanded.
There are more people in staff college than on the Kippy Scheme

Such discussion is not for this thread please, I outlined that in the original post, hence my temper.

Please, if you want to discuss that, start a new thread, this one is about hardware. I will ask a Mod to remove any further comments to this affect.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying to keep your discussion relevant.

Thanks for your understanding.

I thought the Anzac frigates already carried Sea Sparrow in a VLS system?

Sea Sparrow is AA and AS isn't it?

Sorry, pressed submit too quickly.

What I was asking about was installing Harpoon SSM's like the Aussies are doing with their ANZACs to make the frigates more capable of standing alone as they no doubt will in certain circumstances in any Pacific conflict. Harpoons allow for greater projection of power and will help in keeping those pesky cheap Missile Boats at arms reach, any likely rogue nation will have plenty of them in their navy.

Top one.
http://www.defence.govt.nz/reports-publications/ltdp-2006/prj-essential.html

lol - and you call me defensive?

I was merely correcting your monumental error - not passing any opinion on the virtues of war.

great, and now I've replied to your off topic post. dalai is going to pack a sad at me too!

So back to technology. That Corner Shot they had on Future Weapons a little while ago with the cat on the end of it, WTF? Id be too embarrassed going off to war with a toy cat on the end of my rifle. Surely they were taking the piss...

The Corner Shot with 40mm grenade launcher was also a bit of a joke. With the recoil from those things you aint going to land a round anywhere near where you want it.

Any now for something just fuckn cool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrMn1IzDXWY GET SOME!

I would imsgine the Seaspites could be easily equipped with Penguin (AGM-119) ASM's. The latest variants have a range of 50+km or so, and would a handy stand-off capability to the frigates. I hear the Aussies purchased some for their defunct Seasprite program, so we could even pick them up real cheap off them!

Act like a bitch and I will too just so I know you'll understand...

40mm has less kick than 5.56mm. At least it feels that way.

Just frustrating that they can't fight back I would guess.

You've obviously never fired an M203.

Question: How long can the RNZAF realistically keep its stalwart C-130s and P-3s flying and performing without age/fatigue restrictions?
How many times can you enhance and refit an aircraft before it simply must be retired? And on that note... what could ultimately replace the C-130s and P-3s and when? The USAF seems to be having a ball of a time with its steadily aging aircraft fleets.

C-130s and P-3s getting rewinged. 2020.
(at least)
US expects B-52s to be flying to 2050.

C-130s could be replaced with C-130Js.
P-3s with P/E-8s

The 130Js are nice. Would be a nice addition to the NZDF.

Exactly. Which is precisely why the myths Helen spread about the A-4s beening outdated and obsolete were a crock of shit. They may have been a 1950s design but their avionics were very modern, one of the reasons the Government is having trouble selling them.

The C-130 and P-3s are timeless designs that are perfect for the roles the undertake in NZ and there is absolutely no reason to replace them at this time.

Uhhh? You're comparing an aircraft that is entirely dependent on aiframe - a small attack aircraft - to something like a C-130 or P-3 or B-52 that is merely a platform, the high performance of which is entirely irrelevant?

America still has C-130s, P-3s, and B-52s, but it sure as fuck doesn't have A-4s.
BTW the "modern" avionics were a 1980s era fitout. Which made them roughly, well, as avionically awesome as an F-16C.

Glass cockpits don't count when you're a subsonic plane with short range, no warload, etc