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[quote]
http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,3884-2707986,00.html

quote:
Israel maintains an ambiguity about its weapons programs but Joe Circincione of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has written that the Jewish state is believed to have between 100-200 nuclear weapons, a stockpile of chemical weapons and an active biological arms program.


Although this has been covered before, seems like there are rules for some and not for others.

quote:
Foreign Minister Farouq al-Shara noted that "a lot has been said lately about the dangers of the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction by countries that already have different types of such weapons."

Personally I think Israel has proven itself more than capable of defending itself without resorting to chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.

"Some have even waged war under the pretext of eliminating these weapons," he said in an apparent reference to the United States and its war to oust Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

Shara called it "regrettable ... that some quarters selectively choose to level their false accusations at some Arab and Islamic states but not on others, while simultaneously ignoring the Israeli arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear, chemical and biological weapons."
[quote]
The concept of mutually assured destruction is responsible for much of the relitive peacefulness of the last 58 years, no one has attacked israel in part because theres no way destroy it without massive damage from retalitory strikes. Of any country in the world with a need for nukes id say its israel, surrounded by historically hostile neighbours who have attacked numorous times.

Israel hasnt attacked anyone nor is thier internal security a problem, theyre not so susceptible to becoming a radical country and there are certainly no concerns about them ever using them in first strike situation. They havent threatened to use them like india and pakistan. And finally how are you going to take them off them? How can you campare them to any other nation? Least of all a nation ruled by islamic clerics or someone who has used chemical weapon offensively in the past.

Believed to have an active bio weapons program? where did this info come from?
[quote]
Re the bio and chemical weapons read the link. I personally think that Israel should have to sign up to the relevant nuclear treaties just like everyone else in the world. Israel has the best military in the region and has the most powerful country in the world as an ally. I think the article is alluding to double standards. Israel certainly doesn't need nukes with respect to the Palestinians and Iraq was the last country that threatened them before that. No one knows what weapons they hold, their pay load, range etc.

Perhaps the non proliferation treaty can have a special exemption for Israel and the US as they are looking to do nuclear tests again in the near future.
[quote]
The anti-proliferation treaty isnt about removing nukes from nations that have them already.

Why would a nation give them up tho? no one is ever going to believe israel that it has (again how do you prove something doesnt exist) its a pointless waste of time to even consider this an issue.
[quote]
Bob I thought Israel was the first to attack in the 67 six day war?

As for 58 years of peace thanks to the bomb... um yeah, peace in the fact there were no major wars, just shitloads of small conflicts
[quote]
You could hardly say it was initiated by the israelis.

Styln. The link tells you who is quoted as saying it not where it came from and whether is speculation or something more substancive.

Besides who are the israelis going to give thier weapons too? Everyone except the americans dislike them.
[quote]
Bob said:
You could hardly say it was initiated by the israelis.


and you can't say it wasn't..... justifiable perhaps
[quote]
quote:
and you can't say it wasn't..... justifiable perhaps


Surely you can't be serious?
[quote]
Not sure what you're saying Ronin?
[quote]
Bob said:
Israel hasnt attacked anyone nor is thier internal security a problem

Tell that with a straight face to the Lebanese and the Palestinians.
Bob said:
How can you campare them to any other nation?

I get SO sick of, for want of a better term, conservative commentators letting Israel and the US get away with anything they want because they're not as "radical" as other countries.
For some countries these two are the MOST radical on the planet.
[quote]
Bob I'm not suggesting that Israel should have to give up weapons that they already have but they should be made to account for all nuclear weapons they do currently have and should have to sign treaties preventing them from acquiring more.
[quote]
bob daktari you dont seem to have a clue about that war eh. The arab initiated in every sense of the word.

phil - the israelis are not at war with the palistinians but palistian terrorist organisations that have been attacking israeli since its inception - which i would say attacked israel first and are continuing.

Radical? how is defending yourself from attackers radical? what load of crap.

If they have 200 or even 100 i dont think they will need to aquire any more. Again its a pointless exercise - israel might not even have any - no one actually knows whos going to talk about it.
[quote]
It was a preemptive strike by Israel that started the war Bob

Heres a link - from the Israeli Defence Force, perhaps that will clarify things for you.

http://www.idf.il/english/history/sixday.stm

As I said it was perhaps justifiable but they started the war

You said "Israel hasnt attacked anyone", which is plainly wrong.
[quote]
The arabs were building up on thier border and talking of razing israel to the ground - the arabs initiated the war.

If you think it was justifiable (defensive) then why did you bring it up?
[quote]
quote:
From the days before the start of the six day war,

President Nasser,

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight,"

President Aref,

"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."


hmmm lets see, would you sit and wait for 250,000 troops ammased on your border to attack after two of their leaders had said that?
[quote]
I brought it up because you stated Israel had never started any wars, which is not true. I feel they were justified (to a degree) as they would most likely have been attacked - though one can never be sure.

In the context of this thread your points were made to excuse the obvious double standards in this world when dealing with WMD. Of which I personally believe there is no valid reasons for having these weapons and the way the US and their allies (incld Israel) apply different rule books to different countries is not only unfair but one of the reasons they are so hated in certain countries - these continual double standards over weapons, economics etc contribute very much to a world where terrorism flourishes. Need I go on?
[quote]
Ronin said:
hmmm lets see, would you sit and wait for 250,000 troops ammased on your border to attack after two of their leaders had said that?


As I said it was perhaps justifiable but they started the war!

Anyone remember/know how the US entered the Veit Nam war? Or Hitler Poland?

Does anyone remember a leader talking about a country that could launch WMD within 45 minutes.....
[quote]
Bob wrote:

quote:
If they have 200 or even 100 i dont think they will need to aquire any more. Again its a pointless exercise - israel might not even have any - no one actually knows whos going to talk about it.


Bob this is exactly what I'm talking about. The world deserves to know what nuclear capabilities Israel has. If it's good enough for the likes of Britain, France, China, Russia and the US to sign treaties why isn't it good enough for Israel? There is no good reason and they certainly don't deserve any special measures or exemptions.
[quote]
FFS bob d pull your head out of your arse - the israelis didnt start that war the arabs did (see ronins comments) israel did the only thing it could to survive = not starting the war.
[quote]
Britain, France, China, Russia and the US havn't got 23 odd countries next door who since Israels inception have wanted it's destruction.

They are a special case, you would be an idiot to deny it, they will never give up there right to self defence.
[quote]
I saw ronins comments and once again I refer you to you original comment and the fact that yes Israel fired the first shot - hence started the war - be it in a defensive or offensive manner they STARTED it

Did you check my link? Heres a quote

quote:
This concentration of forces gradually led the Arabs to believe that an opportunity had been created to realize their 19-year aspiration to destroy Israel. In the light of this development, Israel had no choice but to preempt.


http://www.idf.il/english/history/sixday.stm

Now perhaps I'm arguing semantics here, but please before we resort to name calling can you at least admit that Israel started the war....
[quote]
styln it wouldnt achieve anything and the people who are calling for this are the people who already believe the israelis to have 100-200 nukes etc etc so what purpose would it achieve?

Everyone assumes israel has nukes no ones thinks theyre going to use them or share them with anyone else so theres no point in pursuing it other mouth off about how bad israel is which most people seem to know already.

To sum it up - there is nothing to be gained unless you're trying to deflect attention away from other less stable states from aquiring nukes.
[quote]
Ronin that's bullshit there is no reason for a special case. Israel doesn't need nukes to defend itself as it has a very capable military.

They are not a special case and have been treated as though they are for too long thanks to the States. Irrespective of whether you think they are a special case or not they should have to account for all weapons and sign treaties preventing them from acquiring more.

Why do they deserve all this secrecy. What's to stop Israeli nukes being sold on the black market at some point in the future by some unscrupulous Israeli?
[quote]
Bob the non proliferation treaty is there for good reason. Everyone who is nuclear capable should have to sign it or why even have it?
[quote]
The world isn't ignoring Israel's nukes; the world simply doesn’t see Israel's nukes as a threat.

Twisting Israels arm and making them become an ‘official’ nuclear power only gives it’s neighbours an excuse to develop nuclear weapons of their own, this the world does see as a threat, so naturally we want Israel to keep its ‘unofficial’ nuclear status.
[quote]
Bob said:
Radical? how is defending yourself from attackers radical? what load of crap.

OK, try this for size. Israeli settlers on Palestinian land. Who are the defenders and who are the attackers? Confused
It is NOT as black and white as you make out.

Re: Israel's nuclear weapons programme, I agree with where stylin's coming from. It's not that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself (although's it's another debate whether they need WMD to do this), but if they're gonna have a nuclear arsenal then surely they have an obligation to come clean under international law?!?
I fail to see that by them doing so it puts them at any more undue risk...
[quote]
bob daktari, yes semantics, i think for the purpose of this 'Nuclear' argument the relevant issue is the Arabs "caused" the six day war, even the miserable old UN acknowledges that.
[quote]
Trapper Israel's neighbours would never be allowed to acquire nukes whether by official or unofficial means. If Israel were to ratify the treaty the US would never allow any other arab countries to have nukes.
[quote]
quote:
OK, try this for size. Israeli settlers on Palestinian land


Easy, there is no palestinian land (excluding Jordan), but thats another argument.
[quote]
phil a said:

OK, try this for size. Israeli settlers on Palestinian land. Who are the defenders and who are the attackers? Confused
It is NOT as black and white as you make out.


This is your sole justification for calling them the most radical nation in the world?
[quote]
Ronin said:
Easy, there is no palestinian land (excluding Jordan), but thats another argument.

Cheers Ronin; at least I know where you stand on this one.
Plenty of UN resolutions condemn continued Israeli settlements on Palestinian land as illegal.
I guess it's down to your perception of the situation as to who are the attackers and who are the defenders...
[quote]
bob and ronin you seem to think that because 2 arab leaders openly called for the downfall of the israeli state this justifies israel launching a pre emptive war against thier neighbours. Firstly did Israel try to use diplomacy to stop any conflict? You also seem to blind to the fact that Israel did start the war.Israeli troops invaded soverign land of three other countries. Before they themselves had been attacked wether or not this was justifiable is debatable.

Now using your justifications then I presume Saddam Hussein could have preemptivly attack kuwait and qatar and the US and britain as those leader were openly calling for the destruction of the legal Iraqi governemtn and threatening thier countries with imminent invasion. So would you agree saddam hussein would have been justified?

I think you will say no, I think youll point out that the cases are different but they are not so different.

What ever your arguments they are flawed, I would like to see equal pressure shown to Israel as is currently been shown to Iran. Why is Iran a radical state, what countries has it invavded? How many countries has israel invaded. what country currently occupies another states land, so which country is the more radical Israel or Iran? Years of propoganda will make most people say Iran but why because they are Arabs who cant be trusted???
[quote]
Bob said:
This is your sole justification for calling them the most radical nation in the world?

Bob, you may wanna learn to read posts properly. Where did I once say I thought this?!?
[quote]
which kind of neatly brings us back to the topic on hand - Double standards!
[quote]
Ronin sorry I couldn't enlarge the map but just have a look at how many Israeli settlements are in the West Bank. I was pretty surprised when I saw it.

http://www.smh.com.au/specials/MiddleEast/index.html

You have to question the Israelis motives as to why they need to keep building Settlements on land that was taken off Jordan after the 1967 war. It was my understanding that they were entitled to hold onto the land for defensive purposes but I wouldn't have thought that that extended to housing projects.
[quote]
phil a said:
For some countries these two are the MOST radical on the planet.
two radicals dont make a right Smile

mummet even the hallowed UN accepts that israel was not to blame for the war. and its pointless to continue arguing about it.

Lets not get into the settlements - in the interests of moving forward i dont think israel should keep building the settlements.
[quote]
bob how do you figure that could you provide me a link. Id link to continue arguing it, If israel was not to blame why are there UN resolutions still asking Israel to withdraw to pre 1967 borders, including Golan heights, west bank and gaza strip.

quote:
n April 7, 1967, a clash between Israel and Syria broke out along their border over cultivation rights (see Golan Heights and Water Wars for more on disputes between Israel and its neighbors since the 1948 war). This was followed in May by Israeli threats to attack Syria and rumors (false ones planted by the Soviets) that Israel was mobilizing to wage an attack. Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser felt that the Arabs were too weak to defeat Israel. But, to save face in the Arab world, he knew he had to be prepared to help an ally.

On May 15, Nasser put Egyptian forces on alert. On May 16, he moved troops into the Sinai and demanded that the U.N. withdraw its forces from the Sinai. Most Western observers and even some Israeli officials conceded that Nasser was motivated more by political than military aims: to discourage Israel from attacking Syria and to enhance his reputation in the Arab world. Nevertheless, on May 17, Israel began to call up its troops.

On May 22, Nasser blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping, a tried and true tactic he had used in the 1956 war. Then on May 30, Jordan's King Hussein signed a five year mutual defense pact with Egypt, a development that did not soothe the Israelis. Israel at this point initiated a total mobilization and prepared for war.

From June 5 through the 10


http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/mehistorydatabase/1967_third_arab.htm

quote:
At the end of June, the Knesset passed a law effectively annexing Arab East Jerusalem. (The United Nations responded with U.N. Resolution 267 on July 3, 1969 stipulating that Arab Jerusalem counted as "occupied territory." The vote was unanimously in favor.)


quote:
Both Yitzak Rabin and Menachem Begin were to contradict the common belief that the 1967 war was a defensive attack on the part of Israel. Both claimed publicly that Israel knew Nasser was not planning to attack. His troop movements were the pretext for a long planned Israeli move to gain more territory. Rabin was quoted in Le Monde, February 29, 1968, as saying, "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai in May [1967] would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it." On August 8, 1982, Prime Minister Begin made a speech saying, "In June, 1967, we again had a choice. the Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (New York Times, August 21, 1982).


Its ok to be wrong we all are sometimes
[quote]
Bob said:

Israel hasnt attacked anyone nor is thier internal security a problem, quote]

Heard of the USS liberty Bob?

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship
USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and
motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.

http://www.ussliberty.org/
http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm

and didnt israeli jets destroy an iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981?

On June 7, 1981 Israeli warplanes struck the Osirak nuclear facility near Baghdad. This "unprovoked" action by Israel was a pre-emptive strike to deny Iraq the capability of producing nuclear weapons, weapons Israeli intelligence believed were in the works. Iraqi defenses were taken by surprise and opened fire too late. In one minute and twenty seconds, the reactor lay in ruins. The IAF planes returned to base without losses.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_iraq_1981.php

1982 lebanon?

On June 6, 1982, under the direction of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel invaded Lebanon with a massive force, called Operation Peace for the Galilee, driving all the way to Beirut and putting the PLO fighters and residents, as well as the Lebanese civilian population of that city, under siege, forcing a PLO evacuation. Israel justified its breech of the cease-fire (negotiated by US Ambassador Philip Habib in 1981) by citing the attempted assassination of the Israeli ambassador in London, continuing PLO cross-border attacks on the Galilee settlements, and a build-up of PLO armaments and troops in South Lebanon.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_lebanon_198x_idf_course.php

and as for their weapons....

Israel
Weapons of Mass Destruction Capabilities and Programs

Nuclear

Sophisticated nuclear weapons program with an estimated 100-200 weapons, which can be delivered by ballistic missiles or aircraft.
Nuclear arsenal may include thermonuclear weapons.
150MW heavy water reactor and plutonium reprocessing facility at Dimona, which are not under IAEA safeguards.
IRR-1 5MW research reactor at Soreq, under IAEA safeguards.
Not a signatory of the NPT; signed the CTBT on 9/25/96.

Chemical

Active weapons program, but not believed to have deployed chemical warheads on ballistic missiles.
Production capability for mustard and nerve agents.
Signed the CWC on 1/13/93, currently debating its ratification.

Biological

Production capability and extensive research reportedly conducted at the Biological Research Institute in Ness Ziona.
No publicly confirmed evidence of production.
Not a signatory of the BTWC.

Ballistic missiles

Approximately 50 Jericho-2 missiles with 1,500km range and 1,000kg payload, nuclear warheads may be stored in close proximity.
Approximately 50 Jericho-1 missiles with 500km range and 500kg payload.
MGM-52 Lance missiles with 130km range and 450kg payload..
Shavit space launch vehicle (SLV) with 4,500km range and 150kg to 250kg payload.
Unconfirmed reports of Jericho-3 program under development using Shavit technologies, with a range up to 4,800km and 1000kg payload.
Developing Next (Shavit upgrade) SLV with unknown range and 300-500kg payload.

Cruise missiles

Harpy lethal unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) with 500km range and unknown payload.
Delilah/STAR-1 UAV with 400km range and 50kg payload.
Gabriel-4 anti-ship cruise missile with 200km range and 500kg payload.
Harpoon anti-ship cruise missile with 120km range and 220kg payload.

Other delivery systems

Fighter and ground-attack aircraft incllude: 2 F-15I, 6 F-15D, 18 F-15C, 2 F-15B, 36 F-15A, 54 F-16D, 76 F-16C, 8 F-16B, 67 F-16A, 50 F-4E-2000, 25 F-4E, 20 Kfir C7, and 50 A-4N.
Ground systems include artillery and rocket launchers. Also, Popeye-3 land-attack air-launched missile with 350km range and 360kg payload, and Popeye-1 land-attack air-launched missile with 100km range and 395kg payload.

http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm

and as for arabs hating zionist israelis (not to be confused with jews) ill leave you some quotes....

From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates. - Theodor Herzl, The Founder of Zionism in his complete diaries Vol.II, Page 711, 1904

A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. I am certain that we can not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country and the region. - David Ben Gurion, in a letter to his son, 1937

Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left. - Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department, which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine, 1940

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population. - The Koenig Report

We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves. - Heilbrun, the Chairman of the committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv

The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. It includes parts of Syria and Lebanon. -Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, in his testimony to the U.N. Special Committee of Enquiry, 1947

I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian Child will be born in this area. The Palestinian Woman and Child is more dangerous than the Man, Because the Palestinian Child existence refers that Generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli Civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With One hit I've killed 750 Palestinians ( in Rafah, 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic Girls as The Palestinian Woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and Nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do. - Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956

We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters. - Uri Lubrani, Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurions special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960

Jordan is a part from Eretz Israel in history. -Ariel Sharon, When he became the Prime minister, 2000
[quote]
Interesting post haga041 particularly the quote from that arsehole Sharon.
[quote]
further to the Liberty post:

Israeli Pilot Speaks Up

http://www.washington-report.org/ba...693/9306019.htm

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack, " he insists. Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews. Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.

A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport. Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has never found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.
[quote]
I can't understand why the US would let an ally attack them and then do nothing about it. Obviously the Israeli lobby is very significant. Just imagine if an Arab country had done the same thing. Arab countries get invaded for less provocation. Mad
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What do you disagree with about that quote stylin?

Muppet, that was only an opinion, not fact, for every one person coming out with a quote like that you probably have a 100,000 with another, i think the quotes from teh Arabs and the ACTUAL number of troops amassed presented a different picture.
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I don't think I was disagreeing with any quote Ronin I just felt like posting a link showing how many settlements were in the west bank. Kind of makes it hard to have a separate state really. That was all.
[quote]
What possible motive could Israel have to attack what was basically their only ally during a war on which the very existence of their country hinged?

Obviously None.

You don't need to think very hard to realise that it was an accident, no different from the various friendly fire accidents during the recent war in Iraq.
[quote]
I wasn't there Trapper but perhaps they didn't want any one spying on what they were doing at the time or perhaps they couldn't identify the ship . At any rate the attack happened and we have testimony from one of the pilots who was involved.
[quote]
'a pilot' 'a dual-citizen' yeah right, didn't they have names?

Like Trapper said, there is no possible motive for any deliberate attack.
[quote]
Mummet you got me.

the "otherside" of the liberty story is that the americans told the isrealis that the ship wasnt in the area

i think we covered the liberty conspiracy 6 months ago.
[quote]
Ronin you're probably right I certainly can't think of a motive for the attack but how do you confuse a state of the art US spy ship with an Arab ship?
[quote]
dunno, have never flown a fighter plane at mach 1.whatever looking for arab shit to blow up, but fuck i wouldn't mind Smile
[quote]
The same way you confuse American and British tanks and convoys for Iraqi ones. It's called the 'fog of war'.
[quote]
Ronin said:


Like Trapper said, there is no possible motive for any deliberate attack.


motive.. to get american support/sympathy for the israelis perhaps? i think the plan was probably to sink the liberty and blame it on the egyptians... sounds like the Gulf of Tonkin to me! http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html
[quote]
The documents, originally defined as top secret, were made public by Florida Judge Jay Cristol, who has been investigating
the Liberty incident for years and published a book on the subject last year. On Monday, the NSA gave him a transcript of
conversations held by two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots who were hovering over the Liberty as it was sinking, and these
tapes confirm Israel's claim that the sinking of the ship, which killed 34 American servicemen and wounded 171, was a tragic
error.

After the Liberty was bombed by both the Israel Air Force and the Israel Navy, the two helicopter pilots were summoned
from their base to assess the damage and evaluate the possibility of recuing the surviving crew members. An American spy
plane, which had been sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack, recorded their conversations, which took place
between 2:30 and 3:37 P.M. on June 8, the third day of the war.

The spy plane also recorded the orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at Hatzor Base, which instructed them to
search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed - thus supporting Israel's claim that it
had believed the ship was Egyptian when it ordered it attacked. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the
pilots were told.

Nine minutes later, Hatzor informed the pilots that it was not an Egyptian warship, but an Egyptian cargo ship. Only at
3:07 were the pilots first informed that the ship might not have been Egyptian at all: Hatzor told them that if they found
Arabic-speaking survivors, they should be taken to El-Arish, but if they found English-speaking survivors, they should be
taken to Lod. "Clarify by the first man that you bring up, what nationality he is, and report to me immediately," the
supervisor instructed, according to the transcript. "It's important to know."

Then, at 3:12, one of the pilots informed Hatzor that he saw an American flag flying over the wounded ship. He was asked
to investigate and determine whether it was really an American ship.

This is not the first time such transcripts have been made public: Israel gave its own recordings of the pilots' conversations to
the British television station Thames in 1987. But conspiracy theorists charged that Israel had doctored the tapes before
handing them over to the station in order to hide the fact that it sank the Liberty intentionally. No such imputation can be
made about these new transcripts, as they were never in Israeli hands.

Israel has always said it attacked the Liberty, which America sent to the region to gather intelligence on the progress of the
war, because it believed it was an Egyptian supply ship ferrying supplies to the Egyptian troops that Israel was then fighting.
When it discovered the error, it immediately informed the Americans, apologized and paid compensation to the victims'
families.

The incident was investigated by inquiry commissions in both Israel and the United States, and both concluded that it had,
indeed, been a tragic error. Nevertheless, the controversy never died. In 1979, one of the survivors, James Ennes, published
a book accusing Israel of bombing the American ship deliberately. Ennes claimed an Israeli spy plane had hovered over the
ship all morning and had surely identified it as American, since the American flag was clearly visible.

A later book, written by James Bamford, charged that Israel sank the ship in order to keep America from learning of its
plans to attack Syria, and further claimed that the NSA had tapes of conversations among Israeli pilots that not only
confirmed this, but also proved that the tapes released by Israel had been doctored.

Another claim that appears frequently on the dozens of Internet sites devoted to the affair is that Israel sank the ship to
conceal a mass murder of Egyptian soldiers on the Sinai peninsula.

In its letter to Cristol, the NSA stressed that, contrary to the claims that often appear in such books and Web sites - that the
agency has tapes from both the Liberty and from a nearby American submarine that confirms Israel's guilt - the only tapes
that exist were those made by the spy plane and given to Cristol this week.

"Its the last piece of intelligence that remained classified, and every rational person that will read it will understand that there
is no truth in these conspiracy theories against Israel," Cristol said Tuesday. But he added: Those who hate Israel, who hate
Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything."

Cristol, a former U.S. navy pilot and legal officer, began investigating the Liberty incident 14 years ago. Since publishing his
book, which vindicates Israel, he has received threats and been accused of being an Israeli agent. "I take this lightly, but I am
saddened to learn that there is this kind of hate toward Israel," he said.

IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il
Return to Archives Page

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=cache:V7CqGRTAcRIJ:www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-201-US-Agency-Confirms-Sinking-of-USS-Liberty-was-Accident.html+sinking+the+liberty&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
[quote]
Trapper perhaps like you say the fog of war was responsible just like it always seems to be with the US and friendly fire incidents.
[quote]
I think that quote summed it up nicely...

"Those who hate Israel, who hate Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything."
[quote]
Perhaps upon finding that they had sunk a US ship , the Israeli pilots were told to play dumb and continue speaking about it as though it was in fact egyptian. At any rate it was a substantial fuck up for the ISraelis to have made.
[quote]
U.S. Agency Confirms Sinking of USS Liberty
Was Accident
by Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent, July 09, 2003
WASHINGTON -- New documents released this week by America's National Security Agency support Israel's version of a
long-festering controversy between the two countries. Israel's sinking of an American spy ship, the USS Liberty, off the coast
of Gaza during the 1967 Six-Day War.

Israel has always said it had no idea the ship was American, but conspiracy theorists and anti-Israel propagandists still claim
Israel sank the ship in the full knowledge that it was American.

------------------------------

that was missing from the top

/me refers styln to the quote trapper posted.
[quote]
styln, It's not always just about the US, don't forget the British also had friendly fire incidents in Iraq (and I think we can be pretty confident that the Iraqi's did also)
[quote]
trapper said:

"Those who hate Israel, who hate Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything."


i think the problem trapper is that people don't like zionism - not jews... are you aware of people like this?

From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in recent times, the impression has been created in the World that there is some connection between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole. Therefore, we who continue to uphold the never-changing tradition of the Jewish people find it proper to again clarify the following points:

A Jew is one who remains faithful to the laws of the Jewish religion, that is, the Holy Torah and its commandments.

The Jewish people became a people before they had their own land, and continued to exist as a people also after they went Into exile, because our very peoplehood is based exclusively on the Torah.

The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell.

This situation has existed for close to 2000 years when the Jewish people were dispersed throughout all corners of the world. During this time, the Jews always remained faithful to the country in which they lived.

The Jewish people are grateful to all those merciful nations which have allowed them to observe Torah and the commandments undisturbed.

From ancient times, the relations between the Jewish and Islamic peoples have always been those of peace and brotherhood, and friendship always reigned between them. The proof of this is the fact that for centuries, in all the Arab lands, hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in honor and amidst mutual esteem.

Jews throughout all generations yearned to grace the sacred soil of the Holy Land and to live there. However, their sole purpose was to fulfill the commandments dependent upon the land and to absorb Its holiness. Never, G-d forbid, did they have any nationalist or sovereign intent whatsoever which, as mentioned above, is forbidden to us. Indeed, also here in the Holy Land, our fathers lived in neighborly harmony with the Palestinian residents of the land, helping one another, to mutual benefit.

Until about two hundred years ago, the vast majority of Jews observed the Torah and the commandments in entirety. Jewry's leaders were Torah scholars, who directed the people according to the Torah. They were loyal citizens in the host nations where they dwelled and to the local laws. They prayed for the welfare of their respective governments. To our sorrow, at that time a small number of Jews slowly left their observance of Torah and commandments. Together with this, they began to deride the spiritual leadership of their people. This assimilation was the basis upon which, one hundred years ago, the ideology of Zionism was born. Its founders were assimilated Jews who had abandoned the Torah.

Immediately at the founding of the Zionist movement, masses of Jews under the leadership of their Rabbis, launched a heavy battle against Zionism. Their attack was directed not only at the non-religious Zionist idea, but rather, primarily at its opposition to the Torah-ordained path that Jewry must follow while in exile. As such, the Zionists incited the nations of the world, demanding political sovereignty over the Holy Land while remaining oblivious to the resentment this would arouse In the Palestinian Arabs, the land's veteran inhabitants. As stated, the leaders of Orthodox Jewry vehemently opposed the movement with all force.

The Zionists refused to heed the voice of the Rabbis and Torah authority. They persisted in their ways until they succeeded in influencing the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration concerning the "establishment of a national home for the Jews in the land of Israel." To our great sorrow, from that point on began the deterioration of the good relations between the Jews and the Arab inhabitants of the land. This occurred because the Arab people understood that the Zionists wished to seize rulership from them. In addition, the Arab people had suspicions as if the Jewish people wished to seize control of the Temple Mount and other similar sites. Matters worsened as a result.

The Jewish leadership of that time saw it as proper to clarify before the Arab leaders that the Torah-true Jews had no desire whatsoever for sovereignty, and that our desire was to continue to live in peace with the Arabs, as we had always done. The leader of the G-d-fearing Jewish community at that time, Rabbi Yoseph Chaim Zonnenfeld. of blessed memory, organized a delegation in July of 24' which visited King Hussein and his sons Faisal the King of Iraq and the Amir Abdullah In order to lucidly present to them the position of the G-d-fearing Jewish community. The Jewish delegation clarified unequivocally that Torah Jewry is totally opposed to the Zionist sovereignty over the Holy Land. It Is worth noting that the delegation was received with great honor. They were even assured that all Arab lands were completely open to Jews, however, on the condition that the Jews do not demand political rights. This condition also applied to the Holy Land. One of the members of the Jewish delegation, Professor Yisroel Yaakov De Haan, paid with his life for his participation.

Torah Jewry protests at every opportunity against the Zionist rule over the Holy Land, and the Zionist rebellion against the neighboring nations. Torah Jewry has condemned the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, the land's veteran inhabitants who have been driven from their homes and properties. The Zionists' barbaric and violent deeds are absolutely antithetical to the essence of the Jewish people.

Torah Jewry has never ever recognized the Zionist state. Since the Zionists succeeding in establishing their state, Torah Jewry has continuously announced to the world that the Zionists do not represent the Jewish people, and that the name "Israel" that they use is a forgery. For as has been stated above, it is forbidden to us from the Torah to rebel against the nations, and all sovereignty by us is prohibited. Rather, we await the days when all the world will recognize the sovereignty of the Creator, and the words of the prophet Isaiah will yet be fulfilled: "And they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. No nation will lift its sword against any other, nor will they learn warfare anymore."

Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews have refrained to this day from taking any funds from the Zionist regime, whether for their educational institutions, synagogues or other benefits. Obviously, they do not participate in the Zionist elections, whether for the "Knesset" or for the municipality. We do not serve in their army, and we even avoid speaking in the Hebrew language that the Zionists Invented. (incidentally, this is not the holy and true Hebrew language in which the Bible is written.) All this is done because Torah Jewry does not recognize the Zionist regime, which Is against the Torah and against humanity.

Lately, the question has once again arisen concerning the Temple Mount and sovereignty over it. Thus, we wish to state unequivocally: a) In our time, it is a severe Torah prohibition for any Jew to set foot on any part of the Temple Mount area. b) The Jewish people have no claim whatsoever to sovereignty over this holy site, which is under Islamic authority, nor over any other holy site. Rabbi Zonenfeld was once asked, "is it true, that the Rabbi prefers an non-Jewish government over all of the Holy Land"? Rabbi Zonenfeld replied, "if King Hussein would rule over Palestine, the holiness of the Holy Land would not be diminished to even to an Iota degree". We yearningly await G-d's great day, when He will return His Divine Presence to Zion, restoring the holy city to its former holiness and glory as in days of old, to be a light to the peoples and the nations.

The Zionists have no right of any sovereignty over even one inch of the Holy Land. They do not represent the Jewish people in any way whatsoever. They have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people. Therefore, their words, declarations and actions are not in any way representative of the Jewish people. This is because the Zionists' seizing of power over the Holy Land is antithetical to Jewish law, and also because the Zionists do not behave like Jews at all rather, they desecrate the sanctity of the land.

We once again clarify that it is our desire to live in peace with our Arab and Palestinian neighbors, as we did before the Zionist revolution, and as Jews all over the world till today live, accepting the yoke of rulership of their host nation, with complete loyalty. Our sole desire is to serve our G-d and to fulfill His commandments with a perfect heart and to delight in the radiance of the sanctity of the Land.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/
[quote]
You sure you didn't get that from www.justifyantisemitism.com ?
[quote]
So zionism is an excuse to hate them all?

lets keep to the topic.
[quote]
haha no dude... its a common misconception that all jews are zionists... that couldnt be further from the truth... those people are actually labelled by some zionists as "self-hating jews"!

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
[quote]
Trapper that's a fucking lame quote and who made it any way? The great defence of Israel and Jewish people, if some one doesn't agree with them they are obviously anti semitic or Jew/ Israel haters. That is bull shit.

Bob why bother referring me to Trappers quote? Obviously you're inferring that by having an opinion different to yours and Trappers that I must be anti-semitic. That accusation has allowed Israel to get away with a hell of a lot. I should be able to expect better.
[quote]
styln, it doesn't mean that in the slightest.
[quote]
It doesn't? It seems pretty clear to me that if I don't accept an explanation that the bombing of the USS Liberty was an accident that I must either hate Israel or Jews or I must believe in conspiracy. What about a fourth possible option Israel lied?
[quote]
Stylin, it's pretty obvious by going through your previous posts that you have if not a hatred then a very strong dislike for Jews and Israel. Add to that your love of conspiracy and that quote sums you up quite well.
[quote]
Ronin you may like to think of me what you will but I have never stated that I hate Jews or Israel for that matter nor have I stated that I dislike Israel or any Israelis either. I think that the Palestinians have been given a shit deal from Israel for a long time and that Israel has been able to get away with a lot courtesy of having an ally on the security council but if you want to label me anti-semitic like you obviously do you're wrong.

Feel free to use the great defence that any opponent of Jews or Israel is labelled with, being called anti-semitic.
[quote]
As for loving conspiracy theories, I suppose you think there are actually wmd in Iraq and you also think the war was justified.
[quote]
Just out of interest Ronin was posting this thread an indication of hatred towards Jews? You know if you question Israels nukes then you must be some kind of Jew hater? Confused
[quote]
quote:
I suppose you think there are actually wmd in Iraq and you also think the war was justified.


There was no question there was, whether there is now is another story (irrelevant though), and yes the war was justified.

And, no the general nature of all your previous posts, btw, do you agree or side with the PLO/PNC rather than Israel?
[quote]
Ronin I'm not going to be drawn into agreeing with the PLO who were well known to be a terrorist organisation. In terms of the current conflict my sympathies lie with the Palestinian people but that does not mean that I hate Israel. I dislike the fact that Israel has not prevented the ongoing buiding of settlements in the West Bank and I also dislike the wall that is to be built.
[quote]
I was refering to the fact that even dispite evidence to the contrary and against all logic (why would the isrealis attack a US ship) people still believe in the conspiracy. I dont think anyone here hates jews as such.

Some people here seem to believe in anything that affirms thier biased opinions against israel without actual critical thought.
[quote]
Bob that is probably a fair point. It does seem highly unlikely that Israel would have wanted to deliberately seek a US ship but the whole incident does get you thinking of various scenarios or 'what ifs?'.
[quote]
Bob said:
I was refering to the fact that even dispite evidence to the contrary and against all logic (why would the isrealis attack a US ship) people still believe in the conspiracy. I dont think anyone here hates jews as such.

Some people here seem to believe in anything that affirms thier biased opinions against israel without actual critical thought.


Conspiracy? from the horses mouth...

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do
this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very
clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel.
We, the Jewish people, control America, and the
Americans know it."

-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001,
to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

One has to ask why the US supports a country by using its veto so many times, http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html and why it spends so much... http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=831
[quote]
haga041, one would also have to ask why you would be spreading such thoroughly discredited lies…

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=34

quote:
CAMERA notified Geyer’s editors that the Sharon “quote” originated on a pro-Hamas website (the Islamic Association for Palestine), and that it had not been corroborated by any reputable media organization. CAMERA also pointed out that IAP’s alleged source, a report on Israel radio, is apparently fictional – Kol Yisrael denied to CAMERA that it had ever broadcast any such report




"Those who hate Israel, who hate Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything." - starting to ring quite true isn't it...
[quote]
Why would sharon say something like that?? use your brain.
[quote]
Thank you for proving my point.
[quote]
its a bloody quote, not a fact..... I personally thought it was Walt Disney that controlled the US from his cryogenic chamber, but hey can't be right all the time Smile

There could be many reasons why the Isrealis would attack a US ship, but to be honest I don't know of any that make any sense at all

So is there different rule for some when considering Isreal's WMD, or is just on biggie they apply?
[quote]
i find it awfully amusing that you lot seem to have missed haga041's well cut and pasted article on ZIONISTS.
[quote]
hmmm... maybe i was wrong with that quote... if i am im quite happy to admit it! Still you dodged the issue of why the US taxpayer is paying through the nose at their own expense to support a country that (as far as I can tell) does absolutely nothing for them... as well as dodging the UN veto question.... fine shoot down my quote, but that doesnt invalidate my other points..
[quote]
No didn't miss it cactus, it's just not worth responding to, there are that many inacurate facts in there it's not funny, also it doesn't have the authors name.
[quote]
cactus, I responded to it. Very Happy
trapper said:
You sure you didn't get that from www.justifyantisemitism.com ?
[quote]
Half truths again haga - egypt and many other nations in that area recieve money from america
[quote]
Bob said:
Half truths again haga - egypt and many other nations in that area recieve money from america


thats quite true.... but they have to have some sort of oversight on the money that they recieve from the US... unlike Israel which used American taxpayer money to fund their nuclear program without any sort of oversight from the US...
[quote]
So haga041...

bob said:
I was refering to the fact that even dispite evidence to the contrary and against all logic (why would the isrealis attack a US ship) people still believe in the conspiracy. I dont think anyone here hates jews as such.

Some people here seem to believe in anything that affirms their biased opinions against Israel without actual critical thought.

And then you did exactly that by posting the fake quote from Ariel Sharon.

Without applying any critical thought you believed it was true, simply because it affirmed your biased opinions about Israel.

So will you now admit that bob's statement applies to you?
[quote]
quote:
Still you dodged the issue of why the US taxpayer is paying through the nose at their own expense to support a country that (as far as I can tell) does absolutely nothing for them


86% of the US population is either Christian or Jewish, in addition to that i think the US has the highest actual population or practising Christians, it then becomes quite obvious that the destruction of the promised land would not sit well with the general population if it was because of and withdrawl of aid.
[quote]
They do get oversight - the money they are spending on the wall has been subtracted while negotiations continue and i believe there is another issue that america is withholding money for.

...
[quote]
trapper said:
So haga041...

Without applying any critical thought you believed it was true, simply because it affirmed your biased opinions about Israel.

So will you now admit that bob's statement applies to you?


Of course in the course of a debate i will use statements/quotes that back up my argument! At least I read your rebuttal and also cameras article... I was obviously wrong to use that quote.... forgetting that quote though for a second... I'll put it to you again... why should the US taxpayer pay for the support of Israel when it gets nothing in return? And why does the US consistently use its UN veto vote to protect Israel? Both legitimate questions that should be answered...
[quote]
Bob said:
They do get oversight - the money they are spending on the wall has been subtracted while negotiations continue and i believe there is another issue that america is withholding money for.

...


then why if there is oversight has Israel been able to fund its own nuclear program? (Last I checked building a nuclear reactor, buying yellowcake uranium, processing it into weapons grade uranium, and churning out 100-200 nuclear warheads was rather a costly excercise!)
[quote]
What nuclear program Very Happy
[quote]
While Israel does get money from the US, it doesn't get all of their money from the US. The do have foreign trade just like any other country.

They also have quite an advanced arms industry.
[quote]
Bob said:
Half truths again haga - egypt and many other nations in that area recieve money from america


ok bob... sorry but heres a breakdown of the aid they get...

A BREAKDOWN OF UNITED STATES AID TO ISRAEL

Financial Aid

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.

Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5

The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.

Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6

Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.

In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.

Military Aid

The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel – totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.

According to a US Department of Defence Joint Report to Congress in March 2001, “It is in the United States’ national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbours […]”.7 According to a US State Department statement in November 2002, the US government is committed to “maintaining and enhancing Israel’s security and qualitative edge over any combination of adversaries” and “the important advantages the US-Israeli strategic relationship has and will continue to provide us.”8

Foreign Military Financing (FMF) is grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American-made weapons, services and training. Israel receives 50% of the FMF budget request. The large sums paid by the US to Egypt and Jordan are in recognition of the two countries signing peace accords with Israel in 1979 and 1994 respectively.

FMF Budget Request FY 2001: Total budget request: $3.54 billion
Budget request for Israel: $1.98 billion
Budget request for Egypt: $1.3 billion
Budget request for Jordan $75 million

The Economic Support Fund (ESF) promotes economic and political stability in areas strategically important to the US. It is not intended for military usage, but allows the recipient government to free up other money, therefore providing indirect military aid. Israel receives the largest single grant of the Near East budget, which alone is 79% of the total ESF request.

ESF Budget Request, FY 2001:
Total budget request:
$2.313 billion


Budget request for Near East:
$1.828 billion, including:


Israel
$840 million


Egypt
$150 million


WB/GS
$100 million


Furthermore:

18 of the 92 pending arms sales transfers in the year 2000 were to Israel;

Israel has the world’s largest fleet of F-16s outside the US, currently possessing 200 jets -- with a further 102 on order with American manufacturer Lockheed Martin;

In June 2001 Israel again requested $800 million in supplementary US aid. This was originally pledged to cover the cost of the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon – in other words, Israel was being paid for complying with international law. As Israel re-requests this package, administration officials have considered linking it to the implementation of the Mitchell Report, again effectively paying Israel to comply with international standards;9

Charitable Aid

Private donations to American charities initially constituted one quarter of Israel’s budget. Today, it is estimated that these tax-deductible donations exceed $1.5 billion per year. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist for any other country.

US aid to Israel: A violation of US law

US law prohibits the President from providing military aid to any country that “engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights”.10 Under the 1967 US Arms Export Control Act, it is illegal to use US weapons to carry out extra-judicial killings. This act stipulates that weapons be sold to “friendly countries solely for internal security and legitimate defence.”

Since September 2000, the Israeli army has used attack helicopters, tanks and F-16 missiles to target Palestinian civilians, homes, forces, buildings and in demonstrations. In its Human Rights Report, the US State Department declared that Israeli army actions were an “excessive use of force”, noting that the Israeli forces used live ammunition, even when they were not in imminent danger, and that the Israeli military “shelled PA institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to individual Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians or settlers”.

The Israeli government’s policies in the occupied Palestinian territories have been condemned by human rights organisations worldwide. The Israeli army’s “excessive use of force” towards Palestinian civilians and its policy of “state assassinations” violate international human rights law. In supplying military aid to such a state, the US is violating its own laws.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/US_Aid_to_Israel.htm
[quote]
haga041, Someone already answered your first question and as to the second one here's what the US has to say on the matter.

http://www.aipac.org/documents/UN080202.pdf

quote:
The Bush administration last week took a very significant step aimed at preventing the Palestinians and their allies from continuing to use U.N. Security Council resolutions as a forum for condemning and vilifying Israel. While this latest development was ignored by much of the media, the implications of the Bush administration’s latest policy statement should not be underestimated.

In an unprecedented step, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. John Negroponte announced on Friday that before the United States would even consider future Security Council resolutions relating to the Middle East conflict they would have to contain the following four components: an explicit condemnation of terrorism; a condemnation by name of the Palestinian terror groups Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat’s own Fatah faction of the PLO; a call for both Israel and the Palestinians to pursue a settlement of their conflict through negotiations; and a recognition that Israel’s withdrawal from areas entered after the Palestinian violence began is connected to an improvement by the Palestinians of the security situation.


quote:
One U.S. official explained that the new policy is a response to the “proliferation of resolutions” on the Middle East introduced at the U.N. These myriad attempts by the Palestinians to infuse resolutions with anti-Israel vitriol can serve to hamper U.S. peace efforts on the ground in the region, and are viewed as particularly unhelpful since the administration believes the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians will not “be solved here in New York,” but only between the parties themselves.

The Palestinians have attempted to press forward with anti-Israel resolutions to generate international pressure on Israel to make unilateral concessions as a substitute for give-and-take negotiations. As such, these efforts can only serve to undercut serious peacemaking.

The clear outlining of its policy by the United States should serve to bring an end to repeated attempts to turn the U.N. Security Council into a forum for anti-Israel criticism. As one of the five permanent members of the Council, the United States will maintain the power to veto resolutions that do not fulfill its four criteria


-

Now that you've admitted that you believe and will quote as fact anything you find that helps your argument and without applying any actual critical thought I really don't see much point in continuing discussions on this topic with you.

We can answer your question and respond to your claims, but at the end of the day your hatred of Israel matters more than the truth, and that is one thing I don't have an answer for.
[quote]
quote:
This act stipulates that weapons be sold to “friendly countries solely for internal security and legitimate defence.”


and how does Israel not qualify?
[quote]
Like most foriegn aid that america gives it is ussually spent on buying american products (weapons) so the money comes back into the states anyway. Some countries have large US bases (germany) which contribute millions and aid in the defence of that nation. Israel like you have said is capable of defending itself but only with the aid from the US.

And why exactly does it matter that the us gives israel money? surely you dont care if the US gives money?

Just like every other argument in CA as soon as one point is proved it is conviniently sidestepped and a new piece of bullshit comes up till we end up in circles again.
[quote]
trapper said:


Now that you've admitted that you believe and will quote as fact anything you find that helps your argument and without applying any actual critical thought I really don't see much point in continuing discussions on this topic with you.

We can answer your question and respond to your claims, but at the end of the day your hatred of Israel matters more than the truth, and that is one thing I don't have an answer for.


Claims? Where did I claim I hated Israel? I'm not against Israel, but surely you can see that their actions, eg the destruction of homes, businesses, use of torture, oppression against an occupied people are deplorable, or do you think these are justified? Just as you use sources to back up your arguments eg CNN, Fox News, and Official press releases from the Bush Administration, I use mine... If you make a valid point im quite open to it! Its all part of debating isnt it? Sorry if you deem my posts to be beyond responding to but I guess its up to you...
[quote]
Bob said:


And why exactly does it matter that the us gives israel money? surely you dont care if the US gives money?

Just like every other argument in CA as soon as one point is proved it is conviniently sidestepped and a new piece of bullshit comes up till we end up in circles again.


Everyone should care if money given to another country - be it Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt or the Solomon Islands - is being spent on building weapons of mass destruction - especially if that money was meant for something else! I thought nuclear weapons in Iraq (their existance is debatable) was the reason the US went to war with them... the main point of this thread was why the double standards?
[quote]
we have been through this already at the beginning of this thread as to why the israelis are a special situation.
[quote]
Bob said:
Like most foriegn aid that america gives it is ussually spent on buying american products (weapons) so the money comes back into the states anyway.

I know you're probably right in what you're stating here Bob but I for one find this kinda disturbing.
Sorta goes again the grain of what I've always perceived "aid" to actually mean. Like for food rather than weapons...
Oh for an ideal world Rolling Eyes
[quote]
America also buys most of its farmers excess grain at a near market rate and ships it round the world to places like north korea where it supplies ~1/3 of the population.

It makes sense tho if your going to give aid you may aswell do it in a way that supports your own people too.
[quote]
Trapper the Bush administration are being once again seeking to protect Israel with respect to stopping the Palestinians and allies from criticising or even questioning Israel via UN resolutions.

If Israel calls to have arafat exiled or assasinated then they deserve resolutions to be put forward to the Un condemning the statement and or actions and there is absolutely no need for any prerequisites to be demanded by the US who will always veto any resolution on Israels behalf no matter what.

In the eyes of the UN, Israel can never be seen to do anything wrong as there will never be a UN resolution passed that will criticise/ condemn Israel at least not until they change the current power of veto.