Andy Haden's comments..

Do they have any legs? I don't follow Super Rugby that closely but has anyone done a list/comparison of NZ Super teams?

I read yesterday (in the Sunday Star-Times) that they didn't but then saw Phill Gifford had noted a couple of years of the Crusaders...
2007 - 6 non Pakeha players
2006 - 5
2005 - 5
2004 - 4

These might all be over his initial claim of 3 but they still seem very low compared to other teams and could easily see only 2 or 3 non-Pakeha on the field.

From what I understood Haden didn't include Maori players as part of the PI quota, so it was just 3 Pacific Island players.

Hardly a conspiracy, they're based in Canterbury and it's too cold for darkies down there.

The Blues squad for 2007 was:
John Afoa, Ben Atiga, Sam Biddles, Anthony Boric, Daniel Braid, Justin Collins, Steve Devine, Troy Flavell, David Gibson, Chris Heard, David Holwell, Doug Howlett, Jerome Kaino, Luke McAlister, Angus Macdonald, Keven Mealamu, Isa Nacewa, George Pisi, Greg Rawlinson, Josevata Rokocoko, James Somerset, Saimone Taumoepeau, Isaia Toeava, Onosa’i Tololima-Auva’a, Anthony Tuitavake, Sam Tuitupou, Nick White, Ali Williams, Nick Williams, Derren Witcombe, Tony Woodcock, Rudi Wulf

If this is a normal sized squad they seem to have at least a dozen non-Pakeha players...

The news items I've read says he did. Anyone non-white...

If there is no merit to it I want to see a chart comparing our Super teams with the numbers of ethnicities.. I imagine many people don't want to because they know Haden probably has a point (even if it is only in the ratio/make-up and not the actual policy).

You have to look at the actual mix of the catchment area for players as well. There's stuff all polynesians living in Canterbury when compared with Auckland.

Plus when you look at the players they've brough in from other areas over the period in question it doesn't look so bad:

Moses Tuialii, Kevin Senio, Ross Filipo, Casey Laulala, plus Rico Gear (Maori so would count if they are including Maoris in any alledged quota).

If anything it could be said they are bringing in the Islanders to supplement the Canterbury bred white boys.

Haden is an idiot, who is going with the whole "any publicity is good publicity".

If you want to claim racism you could say that Maori and Pasifika are over-represented in S14 rugby teams. Which would be ridiculous.

I agree.

The whole thing is a total disaster for rugby. Haden and his buddies like Deaker and Willie Lose seem hell bent on reminding half the country why they can't stand rugby culture and it's obnoxious stoneage views, at exactly the same time as N.Z. soccer is taking big advantage of the massive over-exposure of rugby and is also on the verge of it's biggest airtime in almost thirty years at the FIFA world cup.

Whether or not they agree with him the general public is totally turned off by the negativity around rugby comments like this generate. Heaps of Kiwi's are heartily sick of the arrogant bullshit of rugby people of Haden's generation.

He is a fucking retard.

^ i agree.

Haden has said some stupid shit in the past but this takes the cake. What point was he trying to make? The less darkies you have in the team the better? I like Murray Deaker but he should've squashed it in the studio then and there.

Exactly bundy!

the thing that pissed me off about this was that some commentators entirely missed the point and thought the racist part was that he called Polynesians "darkies". That's not really racist imo.

The truly disgusting thing I heard on radiosport was when he was asked if the alleged Crusaders policy was a good idea, to which he replied that yes, it was a major reason for their success.

GTFO IMO

Shit, I always thought the reason for their success was having a consistently strong forward pack, good defense and a first class 5/8.

Haden must've gotten 20% of Rachel Hunter's brain when he signed her. Sheesh.

Yeah.. all these comments are good and all but the fact that no-one has done a comparison makes me (as a non-close rugby follower) think the comments might have some merit. Just ignore the racist terminology he used and consider some of the people who've come out in agreement with Haden...

Which sounds like a variant of the age-old white guys running the defence.... thing.

You only need to see what people have said on many occasions about the Warriors defences, especially the seasons after guys like Dennis Betts etc left to see the idea isn't just confined to Andy Haden and his mates.

Dennis Betts?


Dennis Betts?


Dennis Betts?


I'm hoping they actually mean Kevin Campion.

Rob, you only think that his comments have some merit, because for as long as I remember you always been saying that Crusaders don't like "blackies" in their team. Am I wrong?

I dont think this POV is all that terrible tbh. If we can remove the racism-black/white angle and think of players as resources. Pacific Island players are different, and thats a fact. And its not that "white players are smarter" either. They are just more risk-adverse and like to follow structured plan. . PI players like to go out there and ad lib/have as much fun as possible/be the man .Exhilirating if you are a fan but painful if you are a coach trying to get your team to follow a gameplan in a professional environment not conjusive to ad lib football

Does anybody disagree with that? Well then whats wrong with recognising this fact and wanting to limit/manage the amount of ad libbers in your team? Clearly the Crusaders dont think PI players are fucking useless and irresponsible or they wouldnt sign them at all. They just think the best way to structure a side is the have your grinders getting field position and then letting the glory boys punch the holes. Seems to make sense. So how do we do that? Well we sign a bucnh of grinders and a couple of ad libbers.

The fact is that most the grinders are white and most the ad libbers are PI/. But we cant come out and say that! Oh no! We will be deemed racist for calling a spade a fucking spade. ITS NOT ABOUT RACE. Its about analyising resources. Honestly I think some people in this country need to grow up and stop leaping onto anything they could possibly deem "racist". With apologies to you gummi to a ceratin degree since you are naturally more sensitive to the issue, but other kiwis really need to get a clue. Racism is really a non issue in this country, you wouldnt think that the way people carry on though. oooo look at moi!. Im all morally superior because Im railing against non-existant racism!

sry bout the spelling cbf

Agree 100%.

If the Crusaders are "racist" then all of the NRL teams must be too, including the Warriors.

Say what? I don't follow union enough to notice other than a rough notion that the Blues usually seem to have more Polynesian players than the Crusaders. Even if this were the case - and I don't know that it is - it doesn't mean there are selection policies - probably that Auckland has a larger pool of Polynesian talent (and vice versa for Canterbury).

Have you seen the people who have basically agreed with Haden's comments? They include ex-players and even some non-white guys too. Moreso, the lack of complete denial by some pundits is tacit admission to me. imo either you deny it outright or you are agreeing at some level.

Many people who have commented on this are talking just just on the racial tone of the comments and likely have no real knowledge of Crusader's policies. John Key for example.

Yep, absolutely.

I disagree. If he if factually right then coming out and saying it will only help solve the situation. Not saying it helps ensure it continues.

Racism aside, I haven't seen anything (albeit I only have media coverage to go on) which suggests he's entirely wrong at some level. Even the Crusader's CEO denial doesn't really mean a lot to me - of course he's going to deny it.

The Maestro's point about people not stating obvious trends for fear of being called racist is bang-on. Pointing it out isn't racist. It's no more racist than saying white guys don't dominate sprinting in the highest levels of athletics. It's when you use that notion/mindset to bias your dealings - then it is racist.

In lighter news....

I was so sure it was you. I'm sorry, I take that back.

lol Dennis Betts. I hope this comment didn't come from you Rob.

But there have been several times that the idea of being "too many Polynesians" in the Warriors team has come up. Usually paired with there being a need for more "hard working Australians." Last year we had plenty of hard working Australians in the squad and we had the worst attack in the league. The key is, as with all things, finding the balance.

One would just hope though that the players are accessed on an individual level for their skills and not just presumed on the basis of their genetics.

Ive thought about this issue some more trying to work out where the opposing views are coming from. I think we all agree that Haden was stupid to air this view. But it seems some are not comfortable with taking what ( i think) is racial profiling ....and using it to selecting sports sides.

Ive heard the term "sport is war" on many occasions ...and while that saying can be easily critised I think its underlying message can be applied here. If we were at war ( Where the consequences of losing are normally our land being sacked and our women taken) ....and we discover there is a job that needs to be done that white/brown/yellow as a group are generally proven to have a better ability to complete. I would be like SEND OUT THOSE LITTLE WHITE/YELLOW/BROWN BASTARDS! And however easy or dangerous the actual job is is irrelevant. Best man for the job. Everytime. And if racial profiling assists this agenda Im all for it. Racism is an ugly issue but do we really have to pay homage to its evil by making bad decisions?

Does this "policy" apply to the Crusaders or with Canterbury's NPC team as well? Cos Canterbury's NPC aren't as dominant in our own provincial comp. Correct if I'm wrong.

Well its the Crusaders Haden fingered. Im not sure how much cross over there is between Crusaders and Canterburys Management either. or how different the two sqauds are player wise for that matter. Trainspotter!

We had just one more hardworking Aussie than we do now, and that's Price. And our attack has definitely improved this year with Maloney & Seymour and without Stacey Jones running the show!

Just sayin'.

Best first fives: white
Best centres: Maori/PI
Best wingers: even (Kirwan, Lomu)
Best centres: Maori/PI
Best fullbacks: White
Best halfbacks: Maori
Best #8s: Maori
Best flankers: Even Maori/PI/White

It's not just that. It's attitude. Last year they were very conservative, this year they've been given more free license to offload and play with flair ala the "polynesian style."

Maloney and Seymour have been steady without being spectacular( ps are they not two more hard working Aussies?), it's our offloading and second phase play which has given our attack real teeth this year. I'm not even going to try and defend Stacey lol.

Hmmm, strange. Cos this all came about from a conversation between Haden and a Canterbury official during a Cant/Wellington final at the Caketin. Which sounds like an NPC final.

Christian Cullen. Jeff Wilson. John Gallagher.

When did they play for the Warriors?


....

I admit to being hazy on exact details on Hadens comments, I didnt actually see the show. But if I recall what was written correctly that is right about the conversation being held at an NPC game, but nevertheless it was about Super rugby. I dont think there has been a Well/Cant Super rugby final in Wellington. Perhaps we can assume then that if the Canterbury npc official told Haden this about the super rugby qouta system then it is not in place for Canterbury since it smacks of a tattle tale scenario

Cullen is half Samoan.

The problem with Haden is he has got form on these sorts of things. Who says what counts. It might be OK for Jonah Lomu to say "darkie" on air. But when a person who is an on the record and unrepentent supporter of apartheid South Africa uses the word "darkie" it is definitely not OK. When the guy who organised the Cavaliers tour accuses (apparently without irony) the Crusaders of having a quota it is going to raise questions about his wider motives. When Haden - a representative of a type of New Zealander loathed by many urban liberals - opens his mouth on race, it dredges back up into people minds all the hate and division of the 1982 Springbok tour disaster. That dog is best left sleeping, and as someone who is responsible for a lot of the angst in this country over apartheid Haden ought to learn to keep his fucking trap shut.

Didn't he play for the NZ Maori team one year when he was coming back from injury?

You mean the one group that has destroyed left wing politics and been the key contributor to a resurgence in fascism across the world?

This is beside the point. Haden is meant to be an ambassador for an event that is supposed to unify the country. In fact, he is a divisive character and a person who is regarded as toxic by large segments of the NZ population; As an ambassador he is by definition simply not fit for use. Secondly, when asked to put up he couldn't, and neither could his cheerleaders in the media - it was all chummy innuendo and whispered second hand gossip. No one, anywhere, has offered any proof that his statements about the Crusaders are anything but a farrago of fantasy and lies. Again, it calls into question his suitability to be an ambassador. Haden's skin has only been saved because he has mates in the media and he is a friend of Mordor McCully.

Anyway I see the Tories have wheeled out their favorite house boy to save the day. Haden will stay an ambassador - he just won't get invited anywhere or asked to do anything. That will be left to National's tame, good, conservative, Michael Jones - someone clearly being groomed for a starring role as a token brown face in the National Party.

urban liberals (a minority) are represenative of a type of New Zealander loathed by many, so where does that leave us?

It leaves us with someone about as useless as you at being a unfiying force.

haha long live uselessness - look where usefulness got us

I do not look for unifying forces btw - I revere disparity, dissonance and dissolution

oh and shouldn't you be usefully busying yourself shoring up the party's public profile against the taxpayer rortiing revelations?

Right. Tx for that. Now we're getting somewhere. I like threads like this because I am aware I have a certain amount of historical ignorance on issues like this, and the combination of that ignorance and othr peoples viewpoints who are probably more clued up, leaves me wondering if I am in fact racist but dont realise it

Regarding Haden. I had no idea he was "pro aparthied". Which clearly changes the situation. Now I know what yous are railing about and its got little to do with what i was defending. Having said that, has Haden made pro aprthied comments in the past or are you just assuming he is because of his involvment in the Cavaliers.