Afghan Refuees

Has there been a thread about this already?

if not, what are your thoughts on those detained in Australia? Are they really speeding up the process of visa processing with all their protesting?

Personally i dont think so. What right do they have to escape to a foreign country, demand that they stay there, and demand that their visas hurry up and get processed. They dont even belong there in the first place.

Go on bite my head off, but u will never change my point of view, sure they come from a country clouded in war, but so do many other refugees and you dont see them acting like this.

They should sit down, shut up and wait, like every one else, and be greatful that John Howard didn't send them back to their own country in a rubber inflatable.

uhh.... they were pretty abysmally treated in the
first place, weren't they?
Not something I know a whole lot about, but that
seems a very harsh attitude to take, Kaysha.

treated where, in their home country or in Oz?

I somewhat agree with kayshe, but I'll bet that doesn't surprise anyone else here. The whole concept of a hunger strike is bloody ridiculous if you ask me. If they don't want to eat the free food the Australian taxpayer is providing for them then they're bloody stupid aren't they?

Yes the whole concept of the hunger strikes not only with the refugees is stupid, and the children binding there mouths so they can't eat FARK!!! But with some of the Austrailian doing the same!!!

Can't see them not eating going to speed up the process, they will just die!!!

Basically what they are doing is a very cynical attempt to gain media and public sympathy so they get residency. but I somehow think that the whole process is going to wasted on John Howard and the australian public in general

it seems to me the children are just being brainwashed by their parents as they are the only ones allowed out of the compound and can see the media.

It is all a publicity stunt because didn't they say they were going to commit suicide the other day at 7pm NZ time if they weren't issued visas. They weren't issued and guess what....they didn't commit suicide.

Plus i saw that about 60 or so had been denied visas already, good thing they are checking up on them then aye?

I agree with you kaysha, even though its a bit sad. I had this discussion last night with b/f. The refugees should be bloody greatful that Australia has kindly taken them in.

2 cents

I think their publicity stunt to get sympathy has backfired a little, instead of feeling sorry for them i see them as a bit barbaric for binding their childrens mouths and just nasty for getting their teenage kids to threaten suicide. I now have the attitude of do it then kill your self, maybe thats a bit harsh but you get my point of view.

I don't think it's as much a publicity stunt as it is a sign of desperation.
I mean they have prolly been promised this amazing new free lifestyle in Australia, and now they're cooped up in what amounts to little more than a jail cell. Some may see it as wrong and inhumane, but seriously what did they expect when they tried to enter the country illegaly? A ticker tape parade?

Oh yeah....did anyone see that mad dude the other night jump off onto the barbed wire? Or the other guy who jumped off the 2nd storey flat onto the ground and bounced?

Its a cloudy issue but I don't really know enough about it to comment. I definitely agree Molatov that those kind of strategies will fail on the Australians. They don't have that meddling righteous indignation that Americans have.

One thing keeps passing over in my mind - if they (the refugees) will undertake that kind of stance upon their entry, regarless of their reasoning - what will they undertake when free within any said country and requiring something they might be equaly passionate about?

This issue has highlighted the treatment of refugees by Australia and so I think has gone at least some way to making their point. Other countries do not treat refugees so harshly, especially children. They are basically in a concentration camp. It is very easy to criticise these people but we don't know what they have gone through. The whole thing smacks of the general australian racist attitude and intolerance some racial groups. Hell they didn't stop shooting aborigines until well into the second half of the 20th century.

Put yourself in their shoes. If somebody told you you and your family had no right to escape your deadly war torn country, would you listen?

Kaysha's comment "they dont even belong there in the first place." Makes me wonder if she has bias towards other ethnic minorities? We live in a multicultural society. There is nowhere on earth where one does not belong.

Kaysha,
I live now in Australia and have ben following the developments happening in the Woomera and other detention centre's. I have talked with nurses who have treated them, read editiorships about these events, listened to fair dinkum aussie people speak their opnions yet nothing I could possibly say explains the right or wrong of this situation better than this quote from a newly acquired flatmate:

"I was looking around for a place to live, and I am so glad I found this place, Claudia, it was so fucking unbelievably hard to find something even halfway decent, and this is like a slice of heaven compared to the flats out there on offer. I mean, yuck, they were dank, dirty, damaged kitchen equiptment and skank bathrooms. It's somewhere you'd think was for a refugee...you know what I mean? Not for a...a you know...well...not for someone like us"

I think I do know EXACTLY what he meant. A pureblood with the right accent and the right religon. A white Australian. It's this kind of thinking that's the problem, the camps are just wat has resulted in this way of thinking about other cultures. Living in NZ you are constantly around other religions, skin colours, half-caste's are everywhere and everyone a quarter something or rather. It's not like that here. And thats the way they like it, and the way they'll fight to keep it

Well said claudiasilva. Australia ain't the best place for refugee's but then some of those racist attitudes exist here too. Difference is, we're pretty PC here so overtly racist attitudes are frowned upon. You can kind of occsionally pick up on it in comments that people make, like politicians, say, Richard Prebble...

It's like a guilty pleasure, they don't give a fuck if the rest of the worlds labels them racists. If anyone's a racist, seriously folks: This is Your Safe Haven! Australia, all let us rejoice....

Yeah, thats the problem. Unless someone takes a leadership role to say that racism isn't socially acceptable, people assume that its O.K. Hey, if you're not told otherwise, how are you supposed to know?

I try to avoid lecturing people on how I think they should act but there are some things that, left unchecked, can become nasty and racism is one of them.

Unfortunately, there doesn't look like theres much chance of the situation getting any better in Australia anytime soon. I'm sure theres a lot of Australians who aren't that bad though claudiasilva.

Unless you've livid in a developing country under a crushing dictatorshipo you don't know shit about what these people have gone through... How about you trade your cushy place in NZ, and all the opportunities you've had (every single on of them) and go swap places with one of these refugees or anyone living under the condtions these people endured for a month, then tell me it's not a good idea for let these people have a chance at life.

Nice to see this thread take a turn to the humanitarian side. This whole refugee situation is about keeping the rich rich and the poor poor, especially if the poor are not white.

Did it occur to the bleeding heart humanitarians that have posted why the Australians might want to keep these refugees(?) under secure conditions.

It could be that they really don't like them and are hoping they all starve to death so they don't have to worry about them anymore.
or

Could it be that this group of people come from a country that just until they left was ruled by a fundamentalist regime that had strong ties to a terrorist organisation that has attacked the US and has threatened attacks Australia. Both b4 and after 09-11-2001. Remember the Sydney olympics. Well about 4 months b4 4 men were arrested in Auckland with plans diagrams of a nuclear power plant just outside of Sydney.

Ummm Can you say potential security risk and sleeper agents

This harsh but im gana say it

these guys dont want to eat right? i take it this is about the ppl on the news.


why should aussie tax payers money go to housing them and given them food if they dont want to eat ?


Are they the ones that jumped ship from Wihslemen wilisen lines ship ?

they only reason they got saved is because of SOLAS ( saftey of life at sea) and under the rules they have to be resecued.

but this rule is going to change beacause the IMO are looking at amending the rules. ( meaning if they wana jump over board and kill themselves then ur football field sized ships dosnt have to turn around to pick u back up)

harsh i know u send them back they just turn around and come back.

but they choose not to eat so all i can say is let them dye. they are wasting money and aid works time.

im sorry if this offends anyone but if u dont eat u dont digest , u dont digest u dont function propely, then u die. pretty simple really

Hmmm. I think its a little more complicated than the refugees deciding that they aren't hungry forest (although I know what you mean).

I don't know what to make of the whole situation really.

On one hand, I feel sorry for them and no doubt there are genuinely suffering people there but on the other hand they're just, well, crazy.

One has to wonder what they would do with that fanaticism (and political and media savvy) given free reign? Would they settle down in Australia and try to forget the past and make a new life or would they begin a new jihad in a different country?

well my uncle lives there and this was his thoughts"

he is a farmer to buy the way hehe

they come there and all the do is farm right. then they under cut the market and put all the est. farmers out of biz.

all i can say to that is ship them back out

those where his words

and yea they carry on with jihad cause they have to other wise they are betraying there beliefs which would mean death i think

92% of Australians support the government stance.

I do to. Sorry guys, I know that 2 years in what is essentially a prison sux, in fact it's a piss poor effort by the Aussie government to sort their shit out, but once you open the door, look out.

Prime example... America - Mexico. They dont REALLY stop people from coming over, they just dont want the drugs and other stuff they carry to come over with them. Aussie has a HUGE coast line, try to defend that against 000's of boats.

I can see why Australia take the stance they do, but they go too far. Having some sort of reasonable living conditions is not too much to ask, especially where kids are involved.

Forest: You seem to think all Afghans are religious nutters. That is such a ridiculous assumption. Sure some are but most just try to get on with living and want a better life for them and their children, much the same things that we want. As for your uncle, well taking the views of an australian farmer when it comes to issues like this is like asking the christians what they think of the devil, the answer is inevitable.

I'm not rascist at all, BUT........

next just a half im a farmer and i use to go to church

farmers spend 97% of there time working hard. we arnt interested in someone who knows nuthing about farming come in and under cut our price. they cant do anything else but grow or crop because they have no skills. as he said they didnt have any idea how to drive a tractor or how to even grow what they where growing. but of course when they take it to the market to be sold they just sell it straight away. thus undercutting the normal selling price and putting established farmers out of pocket.

so dont talk to me about something once again most people on this site no nothing about (farming)

I know about farming. You grow things like veges, flowers, animals. Pretty basic really. lol

I wasn't actually commenting on farming actually. I doubt that the Afghan refugees went to Australia to become farmers anyway. They couldn't afford the setup costs for one thing.

I agree with kaysha's first comment, they should just be happy they are in a country that is willing to accept them instead of turning them away.

Well im glad i started up a decent debate here.

Kat- what i meant was that, they are not citizens of australia, technically u cant just move to a country and assume u can stay there.

someone else said, "if you open the gate"........ and i totally agree with that. Especially in light of sept 11, Afghanistan have declared a holy war on Australia too remember, so with ppl spreading themselves all over the world, u have to be a bit careful, that is why they are taking so long checking them out!

Im not generalising and saying that the refugees are involved at all, but i can see why aussie are being careful with them!

Yeah, good thread Kaysha, and very interesting to see peoples views across the board.

Given NZ's current slack stance, we're likely to be making the same judgements internally soon, and I wonder if the NZ population will make the same decisions as the Australians.

cheers voiceinside you

Futher to Kaysha's point...

Why are you not allowed to grow hemp as an industrial crop in NZ?

Its a lot to do with the fact that if you have an acre of hemp, 1 in 5 plants in the crop could just be high THC plants, you cant tell from the air, the only way is to individually test every plant. Imagine the number of people it would take to manage that.

Now, 4000 afghan refugees come into your country in a year... How do you know which ones have in-depth knowledge on expolsives or the intention to sit on the internet and learn about them once inside the country?

jono - i dont think you totally understand either, none of us do unless we have lived in Afghanistan!

I think a lot of those women, despite being shitty about being held captive in that camp, are rather delighted at the propect of not having to undergo the suppression that they were facing back at home, and are probably glad that they aren't getting beaten in the streets anymore for speaking!

These ppl are being given the chance at a new life, that is why Australia took them in. The thing is they need to learn that there is a protocol and things cant just happen overnite(how they would like).

Further to that point about the women in Afganistan Kaysha, now that the Taleban have been removed, can they still use that exscuse? Will the new lot that have been PUT in power (because thats basically what the US did) be any better in the long run?

I'm confused.

Did jono get moderated?

Refugees. They want our standard of living, and who can blame them? They only crime most of them have committed is to live in a coutry that has structurally been condemned to provide a source of cheap goods for us. The first world dominates them with huge debt & corrupt and compliant governments. If they rock the boat they are bombed by Uncle Sam until they see "sense". Thank God the Aborigines didn't have B-52 bombers eh? Or would they have shown more mercy than they got from Aussie's white settlers? The complacent selfishness of some of these posts makes me really angry. We are rich beyond belief. We have everything. Computers, mobile phones, cars, lifestyles, you name it. A bit of compassion goes along way.

No voice, jono's post is near the top, under mine.

Harvey - perhaps it may take a while for things to change over in Afghanistan, the men were brain washed into beating these women, they believed for so long that this was the right way to act, it may take a while to change that.

Dudes - I think the problem here, right here on this thread, is that none of us now what were talking about. And because of the fustrating non-existent knowledge that we keep blindly attempting to convince others(and ourselves) that we actually know something special, like a different angle or a new absolute truth about this situation, we will end up feeling more and more distant from the actual problem at hand. Where's the solution to this humanatariun problem? We don't really know even what points to argue for OR against the Australian government because we don't know how to relate to this awful situation. Maybe the same could be said for the Aussie PM if he ever got his ass to woomera, would things change? Perhaps. I know that Ruddock himself ain't never been out there so I don't believe he can solve this problem or come up with a fair solution as personally he has never invested his ... well, now Im even talking about something I don't know. See, god knows how many politics are going on behind the scenes, who ever said that they might be terrorists or potentials, yeah maybe the PM's of this world are supa-dupa paranoid at the mo'. But, Fuck! We sure as hell don't know what's going on or why, I just believe that if the majority equals Thinking This Way, then Thinking This Way = Equals Change. I try to encourage enlightenement in dull minded individuals that seem to be running on bigotted ideals, that's all. Maybe you should stop saying "It's Wrong" or "It's Right" and try saying "I believe that this outcome...is because of ...therefore I believe that was the mistake of..." Fill in the gaps, fill in your opinions, and fill in your minds!

Errr... Hope I wasn't to grumpy...

actually yes it was. Oh great provider of enlightenment
Dont assume you are the only person that has a basis to their opinions.

Point taken Kaysha, a difficult subject indeed.

America put the Taliban in power so if I were an Afghan I wouldn't trust the new govt America instaled either.

claudiasilva - i think the whole point of these boards is for ppl to have discussions based on their own opinions.

Im certainly not saying that what i say or think is right and is "the way" to think, it is simply my opinion and i am entitled to it, as is everybody else.

That is why i think this thread has been really wikked in that everyone opinions have shown through well in this thread. Good on ya guys!

I agree with you kaysha, sharing opinions is good. we are all talking in ideals we believe anyway that relate to the afghan refugee situation. You don't have to know a lot about afghanistan to have an opinion of the whole refugee issue. One thing I haven't picked up about this group is when they left Afghanistan. I think it was before the war started, in which case the likelihood of terrorists being part of the group is small.

justahalf: Not necessarily so. Al Queda were said to be preparing to leave Afghanistan, and were leaving Afghanistan even immediately prior to September Eleven, from what I'd read.

Even if the probability is low, it seems high enough to me to be prudent and careful about it.

and i guess it would make more sense to spread them around before sept 11, otherwise they would be investigated and checked thoroughly before being allowed to enter other countries.

Yeah, you're right claudiasilva, we don't have any perspective or understanding about the situation other than what we've seen through the media and the media can hardly be expected to be impartial.

Thats why I've avoided making a judgement about the situation on either side. I don't know the whole story. This isn't apathy. I just think there are too many strong negative emotions invested on both sides for them to come to a compromise because neither side is really interested in compromise.

I used to do a lot of work in the refugee and migration arena and have had in-depth discussions on these centres, people smuggling, the refugee situation globally etc. I've been deeply involved in a lot of high-profile cases, so yeh, I do know what I'm talking about. All I can say is that there are many many truths here, and many many lies and a hell of a lot of desperate, miserable people. Australia is in a tight spot as a target of criminal people smuggling - people are making big money off organising illegal migration. I have sympathy for Australia in that regard. But there are 23 million refugees in the world, 20 million people displaced within borders, plenty more living in abject poverty... until the rich countries do something to create better futures for people this will keep happening.

Good post, it all comes down to the gaps between the haves and have nots. Sadly few in the rich world care about what is happening to people in the third world.