Abortion

So you don't support a woman's right to be a person rather than an icubator/breeding machine?

What we are missing here is the motivation to work. I know many people who earn just as much as they would on the dpb (because of the childcare costs) because they are motivated to get out and find work.

If people choose not to work on the DPB that is THEIR choice.

Though I personally disagree with the exploitation of any "benefit" (John Jury for example whos nephew has again been expelled for taking drugs to school) it is not up to us to make their choices for them

Libertarianism over democracy !!!

For people with pre school kids the amount needed to earn the same is beyond most on the DPB. someone I knew who was an accountant was on the DPB for a while and had to earn about $40,000 to be on the same amount because of child care costs. Most can't earn that amount. Its not about willingness to work, its about being able to feed their kids.

That is one thing that should change, how child care costs are worked out for people on DPB so they find it easier to get back into work.

Yes I do. I believe in a woman's right to have some control over her life. Are you a guy sonics? If so, this is choice you'll never have to make and probably makes it a lot easier to sit on the high-and-mighty-fence (and in saying this I mean it for all men who think abortion is wrong - not just you).

I would rather abort a foetus than bring a child into the world if I could not give it all the opportunities and care it should have.

im not a woman, but do have children. and abortion is something i feel very strongly about, sure a woman has the right to decide in the end, but how can you justify a death sentance on a person BEFORE there even born....??

because its not alive. Its just a lump of cells.

Very true neil. Its an embryo up until 3 months....then its a foetus.

If people would just use contraception that would sort a whole lot of shit out.

i guess thats a moral difference then, luckily for you your parents didnt think like that ..!!!

They did actually. I was supposed to be aborted. It doesnt matter to me though...its not like it would have affected me in any way. I wouldnt exist!

I've been pregnant and had an abortion. Its not an easy place to be at all. Its a very long and painful process of making tough desicions. Its not like 'ah well, got up the duff, better get off to the doc to terminate'. Its a VERY up and down emotional time. I know I made the right desicion. Men will never be able to comment because they dont know what it feels like to be in that situation.

why shouldnt men be able to comment...?? surely the father of a child has strong feelings about the fate of their offspring as well....? just because we dont bear the children doesnt mean we should be denied feeling or opinions about the situation, the first time i got a girl pregnant she had an abortion with out consulting, or even telling me i found out second hand, and i was completely devastated...!! i couldnt have handled it if my current partner had done the same and deprived me of my beutiful baby girl..!!
and how can you know if you made the right decision..youll never really know since you didnt have the child..you cold have been the proud loving mother of a young boy/girl now would that be so bad....?

I dont mean men have no say at all...I mean that men dont know and will never know what it actually feels like to be pregant. I think that women should definately talk to the father of the child and try to work something out.

I have my ways of knowing that I did the right thing.

I've always wondered what my child would have been like...but I with the background to my situation at the time...I know I did the right thing.

You cant miss what you never had.

This is a ridiculous statement IMO. A mother carries a child for 9 months. BOTH the mother and father are emotionally and finacially responsible for the child for their entire lives. A decision to abort is equally difficult for both parties.

I wouldn't like to see people having an abortion. but i support their right to do so.

Life does not begin at conception (unless you are a regilous fundamentalist).

And sonics. DO you support the use of contraception or the morning after pill. And if yes. How is this different for you?

Saying men cannot comment full stop is a bit over the top, but I think ultimately it comes down to the woman's decision and I believe it is more difficult for her. She has to carry the baby for nine months should she go ahead with it, go throught the post natal depression and so forth. And like it or not, if things don't work out between the parents statistics show that it most likely the mother who will be left to bring up the child herself.

Should she terminate, she is the one who has to make that decision - and ultimately this is up to her. While this may give her the control over her body - it may also mean she is left with the guilt of terminating her would-be child.

Men can comment - but I do believe it the female who bears the full brunt of the decision.

I agree nice to see someone with the same opinion.

I can't stand people that force their values onto each other...

Abortion is the mother’s choice and no one else’s. I just wish I wasn't forced to pay for their benefit.

Id rather not comment really, the topic upsets me and makes me irrational

That's what I was getting at in the thread that spawned this one.

Everyone makes their own choices - and their own mistakes. That's fair enough. It's just annoying that the rest of us have to pay for their mistakes.

Hold on, isnt someone choosing to have a baby and making me pay them money not to work the same as someone enforcing thier opinions on me?

As for the mens say in it.... how could a man make a woman get an abortion? He should have some say in it but unfortunately it has to be the womans decision in the end as she is the one who body it is. The man is just along for the ride and has to pay through the nose for it.

Someone i know is paying $200/500 of thier income to ird for child support but gets no say what so ever in how it is spent. It completely removes him from the upbringing of thier child. This on top of the fact that the girl got pregnant deliberately while telling him she was on the pill and him making it clear he didnt want kids. Then telling him that he was never going to see the kid in his life because he wasnt overjoyed she was pregnant. A really nice way to bring someone into the world i guess.

I am completely for abortion but i wish it didnt need to happen.

Planned pregnancies are such a better way to go. Its the people who cant afford it and perhaps dont have the skills to raise kids properly that tend to have unplanned pregnancies the most. Making abortion harder would mean even more of a poverty trap and a continual cycle of poverty.

I think the "what if your parents had aborted you" argument is pretty fucking stupid no different to saying "what if your parents hadnt fucked".

Interestingly the bible describes abortion methods and says someone causing the termination of someones pregnancy maliciously is eqivilent to theft not murder.

Good that you know when you should shut up sonics. Of course its an emotional topic but you should understand other people are also going to have emotional opinions that may differ from your own.

Maybe people should have to be licenced to have babies i cant see how it would be done but it would be nice.

I am often reminded of the bit in the song "been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding"

Unfortunately i know of a few people who are professional dpb's every time they come up to the age to have to start working they get pregnant again and get even more money... If you want to stop people doing something, you should stop rewarding them for it.

dont be so f**king pious......

The abortion debate is shrouded in emotion because it touches fundamentals of the being that is humanity, questions about right to life, when does the miracle of conception and life occur, and deep questions about the nature of existance and the rights of people.

I know several people who have had abortions. Some I hold to have been wrong, some I hold to have been right. But that was just in my opinion, which I have I have a right to hold. I do not judge or condemn any of them though.

Essentially, its facile to argue a simplistic "right vs wrong" with the issue of abortion. Certainty is the refuge of simpletons, for those who seek simple slogans to answer complex questions of human affairs.

In dealing with the messy, imperfect affairs of individuals it is never wrong to temper lofty morals and theological certainies with understanding, humanity and a bit of humility.

In NZ you can have an abortion from 8-12 weeks of the pregnancy and in certain cases you can have one as late as 20 weeks. In some cities of Australia however you can have an abortion as late as 24 months into the pregnancy.

Incidentally, there have been cases where babies have been prematurely born at 24 months and survived in incubators, so when does the product of conception turn from a lump of cells to life?

weeks?

im sure in a couple of years we will be able to grow babies in test tubes from 1 week old does that still make it wrong?

medical science is able to give life as well as take it away, what kind of life is a 24 week old premature baby going to have? chances are the first few years are going to be pretty rough.

The arguement over whether abortion is right or wrong with neither be won.

People can give their opinions til the cows come home, but it is truely up to the mother as to what she does and what is best for the baby.

You should never judge until you are in the position too. I always thought that i would never have an abortion, that it was wrong, Until i fell pregnant (by accident of course). I made the choice to have an abortion after much thought, as i believed that if i brought a baby into this world it would not get a life that i would want my child to have.
I was 19, heavily into the scene/going out, was in a bad relationship and i didn't know if the father would stick around.
Sure i could have had it and gone on the dpb for the next 5 or whatever years. But that's not the kind of life i wanted to live. Before even thinking about having kids, i wanted to live a little - take advantage of my younger years while i could. I want to be in a committed relationship, have a career and be financially stable. But that's just me.

People do what they do, whatever works for them. All you can do is give advice to people if you have been in the same situation, but on a topic like abortion you should never judge.

Good post trancebaby.

Personally, I've written on countless of these threads and I don't believe my opinion will ever change. I would never ever judge anyone for having an abortion, its not in my nature yet when I here of a friend or even just a random woman who has had one or is going to, I get really sad.

I personally don't believe its right, morally or ethically. For some reason to me its a type of murder. I believe right from the moment on conception a child is a child, although scientifically I realise its just a bunch of cells etc, to me its a child.

As some of you already know, I've also been heavily pregnant with twins but for some reason had a late miscarriage a couple of years ago, for that reason carrying babies, being so excited, and planning my whole new life around them, I could never walk into a clinic and willingly lie down and let it happen. I just simply couldn't.

So for me, like fishboy said, its completely an emotional point of view, no real logic involved just emotion.

But thats just my opinion

I went to a Catholic college where we were shown a very graphic video on the abortion procedure – it was disturbing but has shaped my emotional views on the subject. I personally don’t agree with abortion but I also feel that I don’t have the right to push my beliefs onto anyone else.

I have three friends who have gone through with one and for all of them it was one of the most emotional and stressful times of their lives.

It does sadden me when I hear of some woman who have had eight or more abortions and still do not take precautions to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

I am glad that I am in the 10% of people who will never have to make this decision (100% pure gay).

i forgot to add, that if i would actually not ever have an abortion again.
I never EVER want to go through the pain and disgustingness of that procedure.
I felt like some piece of trash that they were doing whatever they wanted to, and ended up having to go back to hospital a couple of days later after having 'complications'.
Don't really want to go into the details.

It was pure hell

I'm just extra careful of getting pregnant.

To me, the men's interests in the matter come down to trust. If you beleive the father when he says "I'll stick around, share the costs and the struggle of bringing this thing up".. then bully for you.

There's nothing stopping a man just walking out of the picture, not contributing. He can do this any time he likes - he's not the onw who physically has the thing attached to him. That's what scares me, and that's why I'd take the father's considerations with a grain of salt in that situation.