ABORTION

Thoughts....

Oh fuck, this will be interesting...

Pro choice.

Smiley?

yay for choice!

personally i would never have an abortion, but i'm not anti other chicks having them

Choice.

And it kinda bugs me that the opposing view call themselves 'Pro-Life'. Which would suggest that anyone who believes abortion is a matter of personal choice is 'anti-Life'. Just a small matter of semantics.

It is a free world and we are all free to choose.

I've always been pro-choice, but have heard the flipside, and it’s just a messy issue either way. Better is to not end up in that situation in the first place, and sadly, not enough precaution is taken most of the time. As a society, we aren’t doing enough to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
Its best not to go on the war path with er, "pro-lifers" (as eight points out, it’s not really an appropriate word, but that’s what they are known as, so for simplicity’s sake that’s what I'll call them), simply because of the bad press they get when some of the more extreme fringes bomb their local clinic. The other side has some very sound arguments, its just that they get lost in all the cacophony (never thought I'd ever use that word...). It doesn’t help that there is a huge amount of emotion involved in such arguments from both sides. As an aside, the onion.com has a hilarious article called "Jesus Kills Ten in Machine Gun Abortion Clinic Rampage!". Nice irony there.

Of course at the end of the day I am pro-choice.

Another point to make is that even if abortions were illegal, it would continue in less than ideal circumstances, so it'd be another sign of foolish idealism on the part of pro-lifers to assume they would be solving a problem, not just creating a new one.

And yes, before anyone argues, it is society’s responsibility to ensure its population don’t have unwanted pregnancies. That is the point of having a society. Sure we can argue about the merits of individual responsibility, but when we want the general population to shift towards a certain way of living, it’s our responsibility to work out how.

One thing’s for sure, when people start seeing Abortion as another form of contraception, we have something to worry about.

There we go voicey (heheh)... any disagreements? :Þ

pro choice...agree with most of what smiley said luckily now I dont have to wear my keyboard out.

I know a chick thats 16 and has already had 4 abortions, that is just sick.

i say pro-choice to a point... depends on if that kid would have a shit life coz it's mother is a 17 year old and doesn't have a job, boyfriend, etc....

ya know... if you do it out of love, it's gotta be alright.

i don't agree with people who could have a baby, and look after it successfully have them tho... that's just selfish.

well I fully disagree with you there Cactus.

It would be selfish to bring a baby into the world that wasn't wanted, whatever the circumstances!!

I think it is wonderful that women do not have to go through what they did back in the day in back alley dirty clinics.

I also think everyones circumstances are different and before u start judging girls on what u have heard IE:"I Know a chick thats 16 and has already had 4 abortions,thats sick" ...umm do u know for sure??

Were u there??

thats a pretty damaging rumour for a 16 year old girl huh!

Abortion is the most hotly debated political issue of our time.
Those who favour legal abortion believe every women must have control of her fertility from birth control to abortion.
Those opposed would deny women the power, and often are as opposed to contraception as they are to abortion.


If we as women DONT have control over our minds and our bodies...


WE HAVE NOTHING!!.

I quite agree with munky, actually, especially about the 16yr old chick's rumours. We don't know the circumstances, so we should be careful about judging.


Very well said, Smiley. Exactly what I would have said. Exactly. We need to be careful about contraception vs. abortion. I don't think it is a major issue though, I think the trauma of having an abortion is enough to discourage most people from being reckless with it.

Of course, there will be some who abuse the system, or are not careful - but there always are going to be, and we should not deny /all/ women the choice because of a select group who lack any self control.

oohhh careful Voice...


ure on thin ice buddy I agreed with everything u said but ....

"Of course, there will be some who abuse the system, or are not careful - but there always are going to be, and we should not deny /all/ women the choice because of a select group who lack any self control."


Self control....Um voice I think that women get the short end of the stick here....it takes two and there had to be a man involved so how come is always "well she has no self control"?


and also there are some women that have multiple abortions due to rape sexual molestation etc

So what you are saying is...Its alright in your book to allow a women to have one abortion but any more than that whatever the circumsatnces...she just has no self control??

VOICE????

You cant have abortion in NZ unless your being pregnant is a threat to you or your child *i think*
One of my friends recently discovered she was pregnant, she will be 18 when her child is born, this is her second pregnancy but the first child she miscarried.

no That is not correct aims sorry..

Abortion is a choice that you have when you fall pregnant end of story.

munkyindenial yeah a choice. you cant just walk into a clinic and go 'yes i will have an abortion please' you actually have to go through doctors *etc*
end of story? easy for you to say...

yes aims it is easy for me to say cause I am speaking from personal experience ..OK

OK.
but hmmmmmmm why wasn't it that easy for my friends? ahh well
pro choice. so basically what any1 else does with their body is non of my business

Absolutly Pro Choice...
But then I am Pro Choice with absolutly everything- e.g. I think cocaine should be available at any supermarket willing to sell it.

Any Prolifers out there? Wanna give some thoughts?

I used to live just down the road from where the pro-lifers used to protest in Newtown. What always struck me was that they were mostly men of at least 60. In other protests they have tended to be mostly men as well (especially the vocal ones).

Pro life pro life! Well... I was bought up in a Catholic family so was bought up to be pro choice because of the schools I went to and stuff...

I my self would hate to be part of a decision to terminate... and if in the unlikely event that I did nock up a chick, I would do anything to keep that child, even if the mother didnt want it. I think its kind of unfair for the father in a lot of cases.... like I know often the father is a complete wanker and will usually just not want to know anything about it and often wont even help pay for the termination... but then there are cases where the father will want the baby, and the mother wont, he has no say in the matter... even though after the kid is born, he is 50% responsible...

It is something that society will NEVER agree on, and for this reason, I think it should be legal for the above reasons (back yard clinics...) and people are responsible for their own actions. But I would hate to have to make that decision. Thank God Im GAY!

I really dont think abortion should ever be used as a form of contraception... some people who just never use protection and get worried time after time... I have friends who constantly take the risk and it pisses me off! Hello! Responsible adults!!!

I meant to say in my first line: I was bought up to be "pro-life".

My school taught me to be "pro-life"
for myself i am.
for others i'm "pro-choice"
i could rant and rave about why abortions are bad. but pfft, do what you want

all up to the person man, If they want to have one then do it...

give people the information, INFORMATION *why yes* so they can make informed descisions *okay aims, ur right*

I'm pro-choice and my partner is pro-life. God help us if I get pregnant. I totally disgree with the abortion pill though.

how can you disagree with the abortion pill kat? if you are pro-abortion by other means.

Pro-choice not pro-abortion. Your choice is a serious one and a "that's okay, I'll just take the abortion pill" attitude will be easily adopted with this pill.

All I can say is pro-choice.....but they shouldn't have got up the duff in the first place grrrrr

munky; yeah, badly worded, I think people know what I meant.

aims: No you can have an abortion whenever you like. Which is the way it should be imho. Otherwise it's not pro-choice.

An ex of mine was pro-choice, but said she would never have an abortion herself. Worried the fuck out of me, even though we did use protection vigilantly, of course. There's always that 0.0001% chance that can hit you.

pro-choice, it's your own body, you decide what happens to it.

but there are too many women out there who don't take responsibility for their own contraception - i would never dream of leaving that in another's hands! I will choose when and if i become pregnant. Sure it takes two to tango, but only one of you can become pregnant...

from another angle, there are mistakes, condoms break and the pill fails, and rape, and i believe abortion has to be an option - i couldn't imagine bearing a child of rape, there's no way i would want to, and if i had to, what life for the child, when it's mother hates the fact of it's existence?

I know Voice I was just debating with ya...


I agree and disagree with everyone, I think until u r in the situation you dont know what u would do

I disagree with using abortion as a method of contreception though.

I know of people who were pro-lifers, got in trouble (thru stupidity, ie, didnt take precautions), and suddenly jumped ship to pro-choice... Hmmmm.

yeah thats how it goes matey...never scorn a man until youve walked a mile in his shoes and all that

i'm with you 100% on this one munky and yes you can jsut walk into the doctors and say you want an abortion. So you're right, but Aims is right also in saying that there is some clause that means the doctor must prove it would adversely affect you adn the child. However, all this consists of is the doctor asking if it will adversely affect you or the child and you stating yes, so obviously it's not something they are willing to go voer rigrously. Any of those "pro-lifers" who protest outisde abortion clinics make me sick - they have no idea of the circumstances and they have no idea how the female feels. Imagine having to go into an abortion clinic and have a termination, then imagine having to do it with 10 or so people outside spouting off about how evil it is.

Pro-choice, not pro-death

Yeah Heavenly I know what aims was saying..as I said I have personal experience and ure right its just a simple question...Im not saying that U can go in there and get it done straight away u have to have councelling and be seen by two doctors

PRO CHOICE

er I mean u have the option of councelling ...not have to have

I know babe.

It's the way it should be :o)
I'm sorry, i don't know much. I attended a catholic school, what they teach made me almost want to be pro-life. hehe really i think pro-prevention is the best :o)

Agreed Aims, but sometimes things go wrong, people do stupid things and often when you’re young you don’t think it will happen to you. And then it does.

yeah ... sorry if I came over as being a cross munky aims,

do ya forgive me

Im a nice munky really


I have just read through this post and I came off as being nasty and I dont like that

sorry

no you don't babe, people will always have a strong response about this topic even more so if it’s something you’ve been through personally – believe me – I think I’m in the same boat as you on this one – you never come across as a nasty munky

thanks babe

well have to have a chat and a drink when I come down

my friends just fell pregnant and thats why it came up but brought back alot of memories..

Yeah i know things go wrong.
Hehe u were a stirred munkey, but that's totally understandable considering u've been thru it... and u get this perky lil' 18 year old ranting and raving... when u munky have life exoerience in theses matters... i should be the one apologising sweetie :o)
*agrees with heavenly*

Definitely keen for a drinkie and chat when you come down. Don’t forget I’m gonna take you to all the good bars here. I can’t wait to meet ya come soon!!!!!

I'm quite heartened by the liberal attitudes of you guys, actually.

Pro-prevention is a very nice way of putting it actually, aims. I think we all are pro-prevention, unless a baby is wanted. As PG says, sometimes accidents happen, and an exit strategy is useful.

and me too you girls

I'm for pro-choice, a hard topic to debate usually due to people over-reacting and getting emotional - which is understandable due the nature of abortion.

There's a wonderful short story by Phillip K Dick that looks at the issue of abortion with a interesting twist - parents in the society the story is based in have until the child is 12 to terminate - the story is written from a 12 year olds perspective - he is terrifed of being picked up and taken away.

The story and premise plays with the concept of peoplehood - which most philosophical acedemic arguements on abortion are centred around - our right (or not) to take a life and what consititues a life or personhood.

A great an thought provoking read - not sure of the story's title but it can be found in the various volumes of short stories he wrote.

this is weird: there are 50 posts that are more of less pro-choice.

there are no posts that are 'pro-life'. (did i miss any??)

why the hell is this seen as a big controversy?? if we all agree then there is no argument and nothing special about it...

I think maybe the people who are "pro-life" as it's called could be a little fearful to voice their opinions on it - maybe, not sure

Pro-choice all the way, although having said
that, my best friend had my beautiful godson at
18, and they're both gorgeoius and doing fine
now...

Pro-Choice myself.

I have friends who have had kids and have
proceeded to lose so much, and waste their
potential. I have friends who treated the
termination too lightly though too.

I think it is too much burden to place on some
people, especially in our age bracket.

rimu: Because we all are acknowledging that there are different points of view, and discussing between ourselves why we personally believe in pro-choice postions.

graphite: What age bracket is that?

I'm pro-choice, but totally understand if someone wants to keep the baby whatever the circumstances. Still, if a girl I was sleeping with somehow got pregnant, I would be none to slow with the subtle hints of my views on the matter. an unexpected pregnancy would absolutely ruin my life (touch wood that doesn't happen). well at least that's what i think now...

Pro choice and i dont really have anything to add

yay voiceinsideyou for once we agree *cheesy 'no more fights' smiles*

I guess one has to be in that situation before one can decide....and it wouldn't matter what anyone thought but thy self.

At Wellington Hospital there is this old geezer who has an abortion sign around his neck, he stands there with a petition...he's like been there for years...I wonder if he helps people change their minds or not??

I had a feeling that a dance website might be ever so slightly misrepresentative of general views on this issue...

Its a shame, cos this could be a good debate... unless it turned to custard.
So I'm gonna play devils advocate, here we go (I'm bored):

Wait wait wait..... first, don’t attack me for attempting to emulate the other side of the argument, I think it is a good thing to know your issue before you have an opinion on it.

*********
Your all saying pro-choice like its some banner. Eight says pro-choicer's must be anti-lifers and whether he agrees or not with his own statement, I have to say that is thoroughly correct! Smiley seems to think that "Pro-Life" is inappropriate - Well I can tell you that Pro-Choice is definitely inappropriate. What choice does the unborn child have?
I don’t agree with attacking abortion clinics, but at least when shooting a doctor who performs these "procedures", we are taking a person who takes lives away everyday. This is right against a doctors code of ethics, they are meant to keep people alive, not kill them!
As for backyard clinics if we make it illegal, perhaps the money we save in funding these atrocities could be used for prevention by teaching our population some morals again.
None of you seem to understand that its not about the woman and her choice, she made her choice when she dropped her pants. Its about the life of a human being.
Okay, lets take it from a more analytical perspective. Children that don’t get the chance to be born could be the children who find the cure to cancer, but we will never find out. I'm sure you all mourn the loss of rainforests and species now made extinct, plants that could have been the answer to aids, yet you don’t more the loss of a human life?
Also the way in which abortions are handed out so easily does nothing but encourage people because they have a backstop. Sure an abortion may be a horrible emotional or physical experience, but that doesn’t seem to stop some people who will go back multiple times.
Protests outside abortion clinics, we are preaching to our target, they have to know that what they are doing is wrong. This left wing society does not allow us to present our plight any other way.

All in all, all this pro-choice pro-choice is another step in the direction of an apathetic society were we don’t value humanity, and everything is geared towards convenience. - Trashy!!
***********

Whew, you have no idea how long that took me to write... Now, argue! : )

Wow, and you did at at 4:10 am too! Nice fucking work!

In good tradition, I will do a 5am "I can't be fucked replying" post. *laughs* But "I'll be BACCCCCCK".

You're a scary motherfucker smiley! One has to wonder whether you actually are merely 'emulating' the other sides argument? Ha ha.

You should have created another login and posted under that. THEN the shitstorm would have started!

I do agree with the bit about not knowing what that child may go on to do with their life. Thats my major argument for pro-life. Not necessarily from the perspective that they may discover the cure for cancer one day (because by the same argument they could just as easily become a Serbodan Milosevic type). Dunno what my reason is really.

Pro-life.

Have any of you ever been pregnant? Then you cannot comment. Once you have seen that first scan, and you see your baby's heart beat, how can you abort it? I just dont understand.

Abortion should only be used if you are raped and become pregnant. In my opinion anyway. Young people who get pregnant shouldnt be having sex in the first place, if you get pregnant without using any contraceptive, then thats your own fault, deal with the consequences. If you are using contraceptives then its fate I guess.

I havent had one and I will never in a million years.

Do you know what they do? They suck out your baby with a vacumn, scrap it out with a spatchelor and put it in a bucket. Theres your child.

Fuck that.

Again once you see that heart beat, its all over, your in love

I guess even though I my self am pro-life, what right do I have to inflict 'my' beliefs on any one else?! Absolutely none, just like no one has a right to tell me what to do.

There is a saying: Freedom of religion is freedom from religion. I think that says a lot.

And yeah, its interesting to know what is meant to happen and what does happen. Like Ive had two friends who have gone through it... one had to go through the whole sha-bang of two meetings with doctors and stuff and the other friend got things sorted quite smartly.

I have a friend who's Aunt is like in charge of NZ abortion something... quite high up with decisions made and in contact with government officials. Its a pitty I dont know how to get hold of this aunt so that I could find what is meant to be the official procedure on this...

Hey Redbreast - why do you have to experience pregnacy to have an opinion?

Thats crap!

I can't have an abortion - I'm a bloke.

Surely that doesn't discount my views on the matter - it takes two to make a baby, well in the traditional way anyway, not that in anyway has anything to do with the rights of an individual to their own viewpoint.

Your views are valid in so much that I believe you have a right to express them - and biggie allows us this medium to share our views.

I don't hold with the rape arguement - why would you only allow victims of rape the choice, and are you suggesting all Rape victims that become pregnant must have a abortion or are you allowing them to have the choice yet denying all others?

I should have pretened to be someone else actually TT... damn!

FARK.....

Yes I have had an abortion...yes I did see the scan and no I didnt fall in love.

I cannot believe the comments that have been said in here ...My god !!!!!!!!


So that makes me a murderer does it

well fuck that ..u have no farkin idea!!!!

oh and by the way....


its not all cut and dry!!

try and put yourself in the women who decides to have the abortion....emotionally and physically draining, regret hate depression ..and having to deal with the likes of some people on this board...

I dont want your pity but maybe you could open your mind!!!!!!!

and the description of what they do ..is correct...Redbeast

But I actually asked for mine and buried it so maybe you should try and be a bit more tactful !!

in the womens shoes..I mean

redbeast: Sure, it can be an horrific process, and I would not wish it on anyone.

But does that mean that people should be denied the choice? I agree wholeheartedly that deserve the right to not have an abortion yourself.

You may not agree with it, but I think everyone should be able to make the decision for themselves, not have some law dictate to them what is 'right' and 'wrong' to do with their body. For me, the ability to 'choose' hits right at the core of freedom in our socity, and it makes me feel sick that other people, who may not agree with abortions themselves, feel themselves important enough to push their views onto other people in lobbying for abortion to be banned.

I don't know if you're in this category, but I hope not.

For myself, if I was a pregnant woman in such a situation, I do not know what I would do. Maybe I would abort, maybe not. For myself, I don't know if I'd want to go through with it or not. But that's me - I think everybody should have their freedom to make their own choice. It's a personal issue, not one for busybodies to push their own moral standards upon others - if you ask me.

I am definitely pro choice. What I think is really twisted is the hard out pro life campaigners (note the term pro life) who go around shooting the doctors who provide abortions. hmmmm

Well, apologies to all whom I offended. Seriously did not mean to in any way inflict unwanted past pain or my beliefs, please except my apology

I guess because I was pregnant and quite far along at that, and with twins, and then loosing them was a horrific experience for me and my partner, we were both very excited at being parents. So, from that I believe I could never lie down willingly and have an abortion.

On the rape issue, I could not understand wanting to keep a baby that was created out of an evil act. Fairly simple but then again, not everyone thinks like that!

Sorry again for some comments that may have been wrong and un-called for. All I know is the pain we felt at having a miscarriage.

People have said what I wanted to say, but...
I'm sure it's fucking terrible. But any argument for 'anti-choice' (I can say that, right?) has to assume a moral superiority to every other member of society. If you couldn't do it, don't want to do it, don't. Pro-choice at the very least accepts the personal wishes of the opposing argument, and realises that your business isn't mine. Seems to have reason behind it, to me.


>So, from that I believe I could never lie down willingly and have an abortion

And no-one wants you to. That choice is yours to make.

>Children that don’t get the chance to be born could be the children who find the cure to cancer, but we will never find out.

I feel stupid arguing with this, but... then contraception is wrong, right? At what stage do you stop accepting that this 'could be' anything?

Oh Red beast that must have been horrible .

I know its a difficult thing to understand when u have lost two babies yourself but I am not a bad person , I love children I have worked with them for 7 years now.

the circumstances of my experience were not ideal, but I think everyone should be able to have this choice without having to worry that society will think of them as "murderers" etc etc.

munkyindenail: Yes it did suck!

I would never label any woman as a murderer or even a bad person for choosing to have an abortion. Never. I just dont work like that.

All I was trying to say, that for me, I couldnt fathom the idea of it all after what I went through.

So, yeah I guess maybe now I have moved my opinion to the pro-choice side of things

I know where u r coming from redbeast, my friend miscarried too and all of my mates have kids..Its a tuff choice to make




Big hugs to u Redbeast XXX

AWWW yes big hug for you RedBeast xxoo

Thanks guys

I dont seriously need any sympathy, Im all good with my experiences, because at the end of the day thats what they are, experiences. I dont mind sharing them, or discussing them with anyone. Its all about learning about what makes people tick and really, tolerance.

Thanks heaps

Redbeast: there are a few things I disagree from your first statement. Firstly, you dont always see your babys heartbeat when you have your first scan which is usually anywhere between 4 & 8 weeks.

Secondly, your statement "Young people who get pregnant shouldnt be having sex in the first place, if you get pregnant without using any contraceptive, then thats your own fault, deal with the consequences. If you are using contraceptives then its fate I guess".
Not all girls who fall pregnant are "young". Older people can also have unwanted pregnancies.
Speaking from experience, I always said I would never have an abortion but didnt object to other people having them as everyone is entitled to make their own decisions on what is right for them.
I have 2 children and unfortunately fell pregnant with an unwanted pregnancy. I was on birth control but my doctor had recently changed the pills I was on and I was very careful with the 10 day stand down time. However, I still fell pregnant shortly after this.
It wasnt from being too "young" or was it from "not being careful" - but it may have been fate! BUT... why should I go through with a pregnancy I didnt want? during the time I was pregnant I split up with my b/f, had major financial problems along with other personal stuff I was going through. I had the choice to go through with it or to terminate. Why take the hard way & do what "society" thinks is right, make myself unhappy, put more stress on my financial position and go through with this with no boyfriend by my side to help me. I didnt just put my own needs and feelings first, but those of my other two children.

I never thought I would have to make such a decision in my life but you never know whats ahead of you.

Not a day goes by where I have had any regrets as to what I did!

Jilly yay...someone to back me up I have no regrets either babe and Im not afraid to tell people either.

I just didnt want my child to grow up on welfare and I have plans for my life I want to do all the things I want to do first ie:travel , without having to palm my child off.
when I do have children I want to be able to focus on them I dont want to have any regrets or despise their being because I hadnt done what I wanted to do in my life.

You may think thats selfish but I dont .

and before anyone jumps on their high horse disecting this post that wasnt my entire reason for terminating ok.

Abortions should NEVER be used as contraception.

If your raped and get pregnant, its a godsend that abortians are abailiable...

Jilly: What I meant to convey was that Abortion shouldnt be used as contraceptive. I dont really believe that kids should be having sex anyway but thats just me.

Personally I couldnt ever have an abortion but like I have said before, it is no reflection whatsoever on character at all. Its a decision that you have to make. All I am saying is that I could never make that decision. I saw my babies heartbeats and right now I SHOULD have two one year old boys and I dont.

So, yeah, I dont know anymore!

I read in the paper a couple of months ago that woman in Canbera (fuck I cant spell, but the capital of Aussie) who want an abortion have to look at a heap of very graphic pictures of unborn babies, then watch a video of an abortion taking place...

Now, when you are in this state of having to make a decision, and you have to watch this vidoe and look at these pictures... hell!

I think the article said that this requirement to watch the video and look at the pics was changing, to be in line with the rest of Australia.

Fuck, this in Canbera???! I would have expected this in Tasmania, but Canbera...?!

hear hear Rincess

Fark Munky sound like both me you and Rincess have had a pretty rough life, all different aspects but pretty scary shit happening in our younger years

When your down babe, we should all do a coffee and have a farkin good talk

definitley babe..do I have some storys..hehehe

we could have storytime at the fats hehehe thats where ure taking me isnt it Heavenly

Yeah we should eh!

A good girly talk

Can I come to the girly talk too? I have stories too...

You sure can Club Your welcome anytime matie

Of course you can mmm as much as I love the fat (table dancing ra ra) reckon we should keep that for really FUN night’s out, I still haven’t tried the new bar curve in Edward Street. I wanna try that one Sooooooon!!

lets go to palmie for the day?

if u come to palmy, the coffee will be on at my house!

ooohh palmy is so much closer I can do that !!!!

Abortion should definately be an option in my opinion.