Aborting unhealthy babies

My friend rang me yesterday to tell me that she is no longer pregnant. She went for her 12wk scan and the doctors discovered that the baby had spina biffida. With the doctors reccomendation she decided to terminate the pregnancy.

I passed the news on to the people she asked me to, and most people were completely understanding and said they would have done exactly the same thing. However 1 person hit the roof! He thought that it was the most atrocious things he had heard in a long time. He thought that the child should have been given a chance.

I completely disagree - what would you do?

Abortion, for sure.

Having the child, knowing it's condition in this
age of useless medical bearaucracy is asking for
trouble. I could never knowingly let someone exist in a life of pain, frustration and misery if I could
help it.

All empathy to your friend though.

not get pregnant...but im a boy...so thats easy....

shit....thats a hard one Moo......and bless her for
having the strength for making the decision and
doing it.....glad I have never been in that position

Abort.


If having a baby isn't enough responsibility, imagine the involvement of having a disabled child.



Sounds selfish, but I'm not a believer that a baby is human until it's in third trimester

I couldn't bring myself to carry a baby to term if I knew there was something wrong with it. It's completely selfish, but I know I just couldn't deal with it, it'd be the worst thing ever. If I ever do have children, they will be the most perfect little things on the planet to me, and to have major and obvious defects would just crush me. Not to mention the child's life would suck.

Damien - she is 31 and already has a 2 year old. They baby was not an accident.

Not get pregnant?? Pfffft.

couple of words guys, "Quality of Life".
With Spina Biffida, what type of good life would you have?? Your friend made the right call, even though it would have been very tough. Hope she has the support structure in place

I don't think there's a right call really...I mean, you have to go with how you feel. And if she felt that was the decision to make then I don't think anyone can question it.

I'd abort too, but it's purely for selfish reasons anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves

I agree mith minx. One thing that is an important characteristic of humans is to nurture the weak rather than letting them die. On the other hand is it cruel to bring a child into the world who will not have a great life. Another issue is what condition is serious enough to warrant abortion. Spina biffida is one thing, but what about something like deafness. At the end of the day if the parent(s) don't think they can handle bringing up a child with a major birth defect then abortion is most likely the best option. Otherwise the child could ruin the life of the parents in which case any chance of it having a happy life would be lost anyway.

Personally I dont believe in abortion for myself. However I do believe it is the individuals choice. She decided to terminate and I respect that. Its her body and she will ultimately be the person caring for the child.

I still believe that a child with spina biffida could have the best quality of life possible with loads of support. I have had the pleasure of meeting a child with spina biffida and his parents. He was a happy well adjusted kid. I admit life isnt as easy for them (parents and kid). But I doubt they would have changed anything. You can see how much they love him and that he knows that he is loved and special.

I am anti abortion unless......

The pregnancy was the result of rape - no child deserves the pain and anger that would come with life - even if the child was adopted out they might want to later in life find thier birth parents... unless you can bring up the child without guilt in it's life


The child was unhealthy - to the state that quality of life of the child and the surrounding loved ones would be severely harmed.

You mate did the right thing by herself and really that is all that matters

i dont mind abortion - was anyone here
concious of thier reality of existance up to term?

I didnt think so - humans kill animals which
have intelligence other than language all the
time - so why not a human animal which has
not yet developed language or self awareness?

Anything has to be better than being born to
parents unprepared financially or psycologically.

At least in NZ we have the choice - tho people
should check out what is actualy involved in the
proceedure before going ahead - its pretty
gross if youve ever seen photos. But so is life....

kisses: It's not the womans body thats just a crazy idea dreamed up to make the pregnant woman feel better about the abortion. I can accept abortions but I don't accept all these excuses.

Jellybaby: If you found out you were the result of your mum getting raped would you kill yourself today? didn't think so. As absurd as it may seem to us a child born from a rape probabilly won't choose to kill themselves, so why would mum make that decision for them? The reason is nothing to do with the child, it's to do with the mother not wanting to have the child of her rapist.

Sometimes people need to stop repeating what theve heard and start thinking about why they think what they think. weird, but it kind of makes sence, hehehe

slug: anyone here concious of thier reality of existance up to twelve months?

Trapper - It is a pregnant womens body that is used to host the baby until it develops enough to be born. If that women decides they dont want to commit to carrying a child I dont see why they should. They have to altimately put up with the hormonal changes, the change in body shape, possible stretch marks, change in lifestyle, possible health riks, the pain one goes through in delivery and possible depression after the childs birth. Not anyone else. I admit this is a possible life we are talking about which is why I would never have an abortion. But this possible life also directly effects someone who is already here.

Jellybaby - If I was raped and fell pregnant as a result I would still have the child. If I could not deal with the rape itself I would give the child up for adoption. If that child later tracked me down I would not hold any hard feelings towards them. As they are still apart of me. It's not thier fault that their father was who he was.

Kisses: Everyone one of those reason was to do with the mother. 'The baby is annoying me so i'll abort it'

Technically I don't have a problem with abortion, its just the women offering every excuse under the sun to make it 'best for the baby' etc

Abortion has nothing in my eyes to do with whats best for the baby. Its what the pregnant women wants. If she decides that she doesnt want to have the kid I dont see why she should. There may be loads of reasons why she chooses not to have the kid. For what ever reason at the end of the day it is her body to do with as she pleases.

There are also cases where women are advised to have an abortion because of the effects the pregnancy will have on her health.

I dont think women need an excuse to have an abortion. They just have to live with their decision. If they can do that good for them.

If they don't need an excuse why are you/they always making them?

It's not the womans body... Can you see the difference between your body and the body of a baby inside you? Remember think for yourself don't just repeat what some pro-abortion zealots told you

I am thinking for myself. I think a living being that is already here has more rights than a living being that may be here in 9mnths time.

The changes a pregnant women goes through are not excuses. Just some possible reasons a women chooses not to have a baby. Not that she needs to justify her reasons to anyone.

If a women gets pregnant, doesnt want to have the kid, has a method of getting rid of kid, why should i stand in her way. I admit the body she is getting rid of isnt hers but the unborn kids body. But its her body the kids using without her consent.

Trapper - while I agree with you mostly about it being what the woman wants, at the end of the day if it is bad for the mother then it is also going to be bad for the child. I do think that abortion is treated a bit lightly by our society, especially when there are so many people wanting to adopt children, but very few children available to be adopted. I have also had quite a bit to do with children with birth defects and I think they make you view like in a different way and are good for society on the whole. They also often have a very happy life in spite of their problems.

At the end of the day though it is the womans choice, and only she knows what is best for her. Unfortunately when the "mother" wants to abort even the "father" does not have much say.

Abortion has been around since the beginning of time. The only difference these days is that women don't die of infection as a result.

I think your friend did the right thing if she is content with her decision. It must have been very distressing for her to have to terminate a much anticipated baby. It doesn't matter what other people think because it didn't happen to them.

I was very interested to read this because my mother was told that there was a chance that her baby would be born with spina bifida. This was in the last few weeks of pregnancy so she didn't have the same choice. But my parents went through a very distressing time.

That baby was me. I was born healthy. Technology back then wasn't as advanced as it is now.

I'd rather not know if my child had a disease so i wouldn't have to make such a heart renching decision.
I think i would keep it perhaps..... but i'm unsure

I think by having the abortion she has saved herself and her child from a lot of pain and unhappiness. Very hard decison to make though.

"it's her body the kids using without her consent" thats an interesting way to put it...

I'd hate to be a stowaway on your airplane.

i wouldnt abort it caus it was my choice to get pregnant with that u carry responsibilities! My friend had an abortion and now she cant have kids so there u go

Well, from previous threads you all know how I feel about abortion, so I won't go there.

Trapper: I thought that you were actually a man? If so, you simply cannont commment on the effects physically and emotionally, not to mention mentally on a women when pregnant. You bloody have no idea at all.

Justahalf: Abortion is treated very casually in our society and it shouldn't be. Murder is murder.

Dr J: A baby is a being in all senses from the first trimester. I can email you my scans if you would like and you can see my babies at all 3 stages of pregnancy and then tell me that they are not humans. I know that you will not accept this offer as that would require actually using a part of your brain that requires deeper emotion.

Kisses: Its her body that the baby is using without consent? Oh jesus, thats a new one.

I hate abortion as there are plenty of women/families out there like myself that can't have children and want them so desperately. Adoption is the way to go if you cant be bothered getting a bit fatter or having some inconviences for 9 months. I am 22 and have to have a hysterectomy soon as the result of miscarrying twins 6 months on. Women that do abort as a means of contraception, can't be bothered looking after a child or it is 'not healthy' deserve to be shot. Adopt the baby out, there are plenty of good people that want a child.

I SAID....
unless you can bring the child up without guilt in it's life...... good on you if you feel you could but I personally don't think I would be able to (at the momment) and wouldn't burden a child (or later adult) with the emotional stress that comes with finding out you are the product of a crime.
Healthy babies should be adopted out - I agree. Again I would consider aborting a pregnancy as a result of rape but I don't think it is a MUST or that I would definately do it.

It is totally dependant on individual circumstances.
There is a difference in not being bothered and not being able to bring up a severley disabled child.
Not everybody is built as strong as some of you.

Redbeast: did I say something to offend you?

By that logic don't forget that any woman who hasn't a kid 'cannon't commment on the effects physically and emotionally, not to mention mentally on a women when pregnant.' and has 'bloody no idea at all'

I don't think everyone has to experience things in the literal sence to be able to comment on them. After all thats part of what makes us different from the animals :Þ

Hehe, no trapper you didn't offend me at all! Just a little too passionate about this subject so I really should read over and over what I write!

I think some things you have to experience in the literal sense before you can have a true understanding of the subject. Take drugs for instance, one of the arguments for drug takers is that you cant comment on drugs being negative until you have experienced them. I just don't believe that you can fully understand what goes on during pregnancy if you haven't been pregnant.

There's nothing worse than a male who gets on his soap box with his anti-abortion speel. I'd be happy to give my ovaries away to a man if I could.

There is nothing worse than a man or a woman for that matter getting on thier pro-abortion soap box. Makes me sick.

So the woman has terminated.
I know someone who was in similar circumstances a year ago.
This brave woman will soon be a Mother as she is overdue.
A woman knows herself not just her body , but how she can cope. From that first decison a life is born that would not otherwise of happened.

While I agree to some extent about men not being able to comment on pregnancy, I think it would also be sad if mens opinions were disregarded on the issue of abortion. You can't fully understand something til you have experienced it, but if that was the criteria you had to fulfil before speaking out then I think the world would be a worse place. You don't have to jump of a cliff to know that it is not a good idea to do it.

Yeah, agree on that justahalf but I don't believe that a man has any right to influence a womans opinion on this matter, as it is the woman's body and the baby is growing inside her. You could never (for biological reasons!) know what its like to watch your belly growing knowing that there is another human living in there, its an amazing feeling, truely amazing!

I think the boys should sit down on this one.
If men do not know a woman well enough to know what she would do before a given situation than they should sit down.

Moo.....could of made that clear from the
beginning about her current situation....

Abortion is not a nice thing speaking from past experience but if it means saving a child from a life of misery then let it be.
Everyone has different opinions are they are entitled to that

i'd like to point out as a father of two that a pregnacey doesn't just effect the women, it also effects her partner and other kids...
so any decisions made regarding abortion must take into account more than what the women in questions thinks as it effects the family...

personaly, i do agree with the discision made by your friend Moo, having said that if my partner were in that situation WE would have to come to a descision that takes our whole UNIT into consideration - this may not end up being what I think personally....

Getting back to what Moo posted ,I beleive that the right decision was made. I don't think there are many among us that could really understand what it would be like to live a shortish life with that condition.

There are many arguments for and against and I think it is a debate that will never be resolved.

Hey Trapper, I liked reading your posts. You know what you believe and don't fall for old cliches. Big ups.

One of my friends mothers was born with spina bifida. She passed on in her late fifties due to unrelated health issues. She did have to have several operations during the course of her life and spent several years wearing a device to help straighten her bones.

Other than that she lived a normal life and brought up a normal family. She now has several grandchildren.

If she had of known / been given the option I don't think she would have rather been terminated before birth.

Are there different levels of severity of spina bifida? My understanding is that it can be quite bad.

I don't know what side I take on this issue but I have heard people discuss this before and one issue that was bought up was that this is kinda like Hitler... I just want perfect people in this world (white with blue eyes).

Exactly!

Bigdaddy: I think your situation is entirely different, like you said you are a unit so of course it effects you. Just not in the physical sense.

I just think its wrong, wrong wrong, but thats just me and my little opinion don't count for much!

Interesting point you make phunkydave. If that is the case for most spina bifida sufferers then I would think that abortion was not acceptable. However, as harvey pointed out that case may be the exception rather than the norm. What you said club boi is what worries me as well. That topic needs a whole thread I think.

Mr Phats: Hey thanks mate

Don't think that if you banned abortion there would be a surplus of babies for childless couples to adopt.

There would still be backstreet abortions, and more single parent families. Alot of these would be on welfare.

Damien - I don't think it is relevant! Considering I mentioned that she went for her 12wk scan clearly she wanted to have the baby, otherwise she would have aborted before then.

True to some extent diva, but some people would choose the option of adopting out their babies so more would be available.

Diva, justahalf: I agree, but there are so many factors to take into consideration like rape etc. I am a true believer in the freedom of choice and about educating people about the options and risks.

Redbeast - I appreciate the understanding you've shown, dispite your differing option...
i don't think i'll add anthing to the 'bash red thread' now :o)

Read what I wrote moo.....I was taking the piss
with the not getting pregnant comment.

Mysecond comment is what I seriously was
commenting.

sheesh

Sorry Damien - tis a subject close to home!

is cool

I think she totally did the right thing...

The thing that I have trouble with is where do you draw the line...?

Like you can start this argument with, the baby is brain dead... should we terminate... probably yes... then the baby has spinabiffida, quality of life will be less... should we terminate???? then as technology gets better we maybe able to test for more and more things... "this baby has Attention Deficit Disorder... its going to be hard to bring this one up... parents, do you have the pactience?" then what? this baby is a girl and is going to be blonde... do we really think we can let her go through live with people telling blonde jokes about her?

Where do you stop?

Do we want a perfect society where only the perfect are allowed to enter this world? And who determines perfect?

Me.

I do.

We can all go way too far in anaylsing this but the situation/focal point should be is it ok to abort a baby if its less than perfect? I can fully appreciate Moo's friends situation and that having an abortion and in her case, must have been one of the biggest decisions she has ever made. In that respect, its hard, and something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

But I will always stick to my principals reguardless of what happens in my life. I could never willingly lie down and kill my child, I just couldn't do it, even if the baby wasn't perfect, even if it was sick, I would still give birth. I just simply could not have an abortion. I don't honestly think that anything or anyone could ever change how I feel about this.

I guess again - it comes down to having experienced pregnancy yourself. As red says we can all judge what WE would do given the situation. But.... very few of us actually know what it is like to have an unborn baby growing in our tummies for 3mths.

good on her for having the courage to decide what ever was best for her!

Moo - Massive respect to your friend for having the strength to make such a heart breaking decision. I wish her peace and luck with her next pregnancy, if her and her partner choose to embark once again.

Like I said earlier I respect a womens choice to have an abortion regardless of her reasons. I personally could not do the same thing. If I was to have another child and felt I wasnt able to look after them I would give them up for adoption. As I would be able to live with the decision of adoption but not abortion. Adleast I have given the child a chance to live.

I have always thought that if a child was not meant to be they would self terminate during the process of pregnancy. May that be through miscarriage or still birth.

I think all children are special gifts that need to be cherished.