A tutorial on sound and gain setting on a dj mixer

Check this little tutorial out.

Found this on you tube, after the little discussion a while ago on here, i find it rather appropriate that this guy thinks the same as i do.

That is there is no excuse for any dj, to be showing red led's on a dj mixer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tc7jpCaHdo&feature=related

God that guy in this video is such a dork.
Talk about being an tight bast*rd.

From what I have heard from using DJM 600's and 800's, its fine to go into the first 2 reds on a mixer.
ie on a DJM 600 the +1 and +2. This actually creates a warming of the sound.

+4 you can just get away with but the audio starts to sound compressed. Then the compression gets really bad as you head into +7 onwards.

Some DJ's really do get carried away with keeping it in the high end of the red and I guess their hearing or technical ability or drunkenness is to blame.
One thing people should do before riding the +7 etc.. is to just turn the attenuator up on the back of the mixer.

But keeping it in the green all the time is just lame.

just change your red leds to green ones and you'll be fine

LOL... Plus, going into the red on your channel fader levels is actually fine, as it bring's out the best in the tune - I.e - Get's all the track's elements out nicely... It is ke however to be carefull on the master volume

I will say it again, ALL YOU ARE DOING WHEN YOU PUSH THE REDS (that is any red leds) is generating heat in your, mixers preamps, voice coils of your speakers, and your amplifiers.

The red leds equals, in basic terms the movement of your speaker drivers.

Therefore the longer you hold the reds, the longer your speaker driver stops moving (ie square sound wave instead of a curved sound wave), hence blown speaker coils.

Correct me if i am wrong, but this is as i understand it, from literature i have read on the www.rane.com site.

This is the point the guy in the video is trying to get across.

Obviously if it's on the Rane site, it is speaking about Rane mixers.

The levels on your mixer are there as a tool. Just cause you're in the red isn't necessarily bad. Some mixers can tolerate hitting red LEDs without distorting the sound (some even sound better when in the red occasionally).

Also, red LEDs are not the same dB level on every mixer. Some mixers give you red far lower than others, therefore if you push past red, it won't distort. Cheaper mixers generally distort when you hit the red.

Another variable is the quality of the music, a bad pressing of vinyl or a lower quality mp3 will distort more than a good quality mp3, wav or vinyl pressing.

A good DJ will leave the booth, or have a person monitoring the sound durig the night. As a DJ can't really trust there ears when in the booth, the monitoring will never give accurate picture of what's going on on the floor.

For example - the Rane Empath, can essentially be pushed right into the red, and still not clip. The designers left enough headroom in there to play with...

Its called gain structure - gear is generally designed to be worked at unity gain - i.e. the pre-amps arnt boosting or attenuating the signel. However, due to different levels between tracks, the gain can be used to match them. I was with Jeremy, the Rane rep at the time, and we had all the eqs up full, the gain right up, and the master to the top, and still were not able to hear any distortion...

Essentially though, unless you are sure how the gain structure is working on the mixer, best practice is to keep it either in the green, or bouncing of '0' if there are numbers on the meters... however, this can only be a guide.

Regardless though, this...



...is just incorrect... it might just be that you like the sound of the soft saturation going on in your mixer...

My 800 sounds best 2 or even 3 in the red...

Thank you... precisely my point really, My Allen & Heath also sounds better 1 or 2 in the red

Is it because it is louder?

This is cut straight from the rane website's reference library.

CLIPPING; Term used to describe the result of an amplifier running into power supply limitation.

The maximum output voltage that any amplifier can produce is limited by its power supply.

Attempting to output a voltage (or current) level that exceeds the power supply results in a flattoping effect on the signal, making it look cut off or "clipped."

A clipped waveform exhibits extreme harmonic distortion, dominated by large amplitude odd-ordered harmonics making it sound harsh or dissonant.

Hard clipping is the term used to describe extreme clipping of a signal, producing highly visible flattoped waveforms as viewed on an oscilloscope;

soft clipping refers to moderate clipping that results in waveforms having softly-rounded edges, as opposed to the sharp edges of hard clipping.

For how-to-avoid clipping see the RaneNote
Setting Sound System Level Controls. http://www.rane.com/note135.html

Obviously you have not read anything in this thread at all??

Stop referencing all your answers to Rane, it may be right for one of their mixers, but not all mixers.

How many rane mixers do you see in clubs? If anything, you should be referencing Pioneer or Allen & Heath.

If we were stupid enough to have our music clipping everytime we play, I'm sure all the DJ's here wouldn't be playing out.

A possiblity why the Allen & Heith is ok running into the red (slightly not alot) is the pre-A/D converter soft clip hardware limiter. this helps prevent unwanted distortion, i'm sure pioneer might offer the same thing, someone might be able to confirm.

Not all mixers are the same, and the sensitivity of the led's isn't a total reference point for clipping a signal, its merely a guide. Most clued up sound engineers I have worked with will have limiters on their gear which will prevent input overloading.

So the question remains does running your mixer into the red clip the signal.. short answer is yes, but unless your sound guy is too cheap to protect his own gear with the proper equipment, you shouldn't have too much of a problem unless you are seriously ramping the levels! and in saying that a sound engineer should be present at all times during a gig to keep an eye on things.

Keeping things at 0db is the ideal gain, no one has disputed this - because it means that (theoretically) nothing is being added to or taken away from the signal. But running slightly in the red is not as bad as you have made it out to be. It will work the sound slightly... which is not always a bad thing. Fo sure pushing everything into the red is bad, no one is argueing this... they are arguing against your idea that anything in the red is bad.

While keeping in the green is optimal, it's all relative, and depends on the mastering of the music you are playing.

Technically speaking;

nacoa make teh funnay!

Oh, and no one wants to see if Tristan lives up to his sign

Turning the amplifiers up is a much better idea than clipping the signal running into them.

However, cunts are always going to get drunk and turn the mixer up tho, innit.

Besides, usually when you start your set, the cunt before you is gonna be redding the mixer out already. Like anyone is gonna turn it down at that stage.

It's like driving over the speed limit, we all do it and make up excuses to justify ourselves.

true, but this is why i suggested (like any decent promotor would make sure of) having a sound tech or someone who knows what they are doing there to keep the amp levels up and the inputs down below clip.. So the dj doesn't feel like he has to run contantly into the red to get the spl out of the system.

there's been some systems i've seen down your ways that could definately go louder on the amp end, but the sound tech set them at a medium volume while the club was empty, then when it filled up you couldn't really hear too well.. hence why dj's start pushing the input levels up.

there should be a ton of head room set by the sound tech so this doesn't happen..

Pure and simple, STOP BLAMING THE DJ's / PERFORMERS!!! (unless they are a complete tool with total disregard for the sound system) with in reason it is up to the sound technician to make sure the system is running properly before the gig starts.

my 2c.

Looks like some one just got pleasurezOWNED

Yep that's my understanding AMP's up full and work your way back from there is the way to go. If the compressors are setup well they should protect your speakers right?

It's not economical for most clubs to have an actual sound tech on hand to look after this stuff all night. The Dj's should know their shit or it should be watched by someone behind the bar.

It's not rocket science guys and every system is different so just use your ears.

IMO the best sound in town at the moment is in The Drop but you have to watch your levels or the compressors kick in and it all turns to shit.

Yeah i do like The Drop's system apart from the two 15's (i think) against the wall as you walk in from the civic entrance.

They sound awful, way too much 5k range for my ears, they need a decent eq. you can't hear the bartender, as they are set to sound louder than the main rig while you stand at the bar. should be the other way round, but yes apart from that, it sounds great.

I really do like the fact the amps are at eye level to the right of the dj setup though! so you can always check clip lights etc, while you are playing. bigups for who ever designed that. No point in having the amps hidden away so you can't see the leds.

Ah yeah I noticed that, I'm pretty sensitive to mids and highs so I just avoid the back half of the bar. Can that be adjusted from up the front?

I'd like to put a party on there some time.

These comments clearly show not many people really knows what they are talking about...
If you are not a sound engineer then really its like speaking our of your arse.

Its like what I see about people commenting about what tax deductions they have done and not being an accountant. (I am)

Just becuase you know how do dj and beatmix, how does that relate to knowing about sound? Are you out in the club listenig to yourself as well during your set? are you taking the amps and speakers to be repaired on the Mondayto be repaired, and finding out what happened? Do you know when you have fucked a sound system?

Most of these comments are here-say i'm sorry and over the many years has seen most DJ's disrespect gear, and absolutely you CAN blame the performers.

A lot of damage occurs from when you are told where the maximum settings are, but still continue to ignore instructions.

And by the way 90% of damage comes from Drum+bass DJ's. And that's a fact...

Um, a good DJ knows how to use there equipment, you don't need to be a sound engineer to understand to how to use a mixer correctly.

A few of the posters here that have provided solid information do know sound. It doesn't take much to learn if you put in the effort.

How do you know the comments here are hear-say? Have you done your own research? To lump ALL DJ's together as talking out there arse is a bit assumptious in itself.

Maybe DJ's that continue to screw your speakers should not be able to play at your club if it's costing you money. As they are not a good DJ if they don't understand sound. Sound is their job.

When mastering monkey trouble tracks, do you take into the equation dj's pushing them into the red and distorting them, or do you expect the waveform to be played exactly as you mastered it?

Usually we make sure its pushing up towards digital 0db and pumping in between 0 and -2db,
but digital is different than analogue like on mixers. Digital max is 0db, where as I started earlier, mixers have some headroom.

Where have I ever said in this whole thread to distort or clip music. PZDJ comment was not to push into the red at all. He is wrong.

This is not a technical term that I'm familiar with.

Means it compresses slightly...

To clarify again, 0db or top of greens is optimal, but pushing slightly over this is not bad... it's not as good as 0db, but the difference is minute

is that still there? I guess it's Ali that now has that responsibility of giving you the bash!

Thank you nacoa and every one else for your comments.

The comments on the rane site are actually a industry reference library not relating to just rane products.

I have never said absolutely no red leds, i am a realist and realise at some stage of the night, tracks will red line occasionally.

I have always wondered why, no matter what setting a system is set up on, also as simon says people still ignore instructions and go beyond set levels for the club or gig, dj's in chch always seem to push above the green leds.

Hence the reason my system is set on 90% full volume with normally +5db gain on the dbx digital system controller and limiter on 0db leaving 5% headroom in the amps for red liners and still have a bucket load of power in the system.

As stated by someone, i am always at the gig too tweet the system ,if asked to by the dj on the decks.

appologies i did say no red leds, what i meant to say is there a reason why dj's red line, all the time now i know why.

On the mixer topic...

This might sound like a stupid question: What cable do I need to run the digital out on my MK3s to the 800?...

single rca to rca...

a high quality one works better though, just check the brand that what bar uses

hmm yeah it's more or less RCA, I didn't think the cable type would make a difference because it's digital but there was definitely a big difference between using a normal old RCA cable and the special digital audio cable I got from Pudney.

If you know some that can get Pudney stuff or similar at wholesale you'll save quite a few dollars.

Just to clarify this was not on some flash ass Pioneer setup, I use digital from my PC to the AMP. Same thing though.

Sweet, I'll hit ya up.