A song for Bin Laden

http://www.gotlaughs.com/funpages/bin2.cfm

No thanks.

oh well i really mean like fuck him as ppl say anyway he should be hung for his crimes looks like the all black manager will be back in a the sas and hunt his arse outa da mtz and kill dat mutha westside

Fair enough!

Bin Laden needs to go to jail. Sure. But.

I think George Bush should be killed before Bin Laden - hes done a lot worse. Breaking treaty after treaty, including pollution treaties when the USA produces 1/3 the worlds pollution. Funding the worst terrorists in the world, the US army. Ordering the execution of thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan. The list goes on and on...

haha ginzad, go live in fuckin afghanistan then!...idiot!

the bin laden dude should be given a bullet not a song ok ppl sumone like that is a shit stirrer im surprised the didnt try and bomb a power plant

Grow up amplicock. Why take that personally? Thats my opinion.

No matter what the taliban or bin laden do, it'll be millions more innocent people they have to kill to get anywhere near americas badness.

Don't beleive all the propoganda you get - question what you're told sometimes for fucks sake. What makes it right for america to kill people and for other people not to?

gee, ok. but why are you defending a race of people that have the worst human rights record of all time? a race that have NO respect for the women of their country, a race that believe (they actually truley believe) that all americans are the 'infedel and deserve no less than death, a race that can justify all their acts of madness because of alah. do0d, you should seriously go their and check it out for yourself. fucken cival rights do-gooder, their are no fuckin inocent people in that country (95% are all religious finaticals) that cute little kid you see on the street will shoot you dead for believing in a god that isnt thiers, with no remorse, in a few yesrs...its the way its allways been and allways will be. and to compare that with america? thier army are the greatest terrorists? fuck man, who needs to grow up? (I think George Bush should be killed before Bin Laden - hes done a lot worse. Breaking treaty after treaty, including pollution......) i cant believe you wrote that, or worse still, that its your opinion. your a fucken idiot!

Chill out, a flame war doesn't advance either side of the argument. I don't agree with either of you two.

amplified. You're not worth replying to properly if you have to resort to "you da fucking idiot eh dere bo for de fuck aue tekore bay" sort of shit in your post. If you wanna debate it, I'm keen, but I don't want to see who can use the most colourful language in insulting eachother.

wutever

hey giznad, sorry man. aiight...i take it back. apologies to biggie for the bad posting. just hit a nerve. sorry.

I'm with GIZNAD!!! You go boy! I think both are just as bad as each other .... heh!

"but why are you defending a race of people that have the worst human rights record of all time?" You want to explain this one?

Amnesty International has condemed America for its human right violations. Heres an example of American violating its own human rights:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/latestnewsstory.cfm?storyID=226646&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

Maybe youve lived there amplified as you seem to think you know alot about the culture.

"their are no fuckin inocent people in that country (95% are all religious finaticals) that cute little kid you see on the street will shoot you dead for believing in a god that isnt thiers," Where did you pull that out of? Incidently thats what christians and catholics have been doing for years (Recently - bombing school girls in Ireland)

"a race that have NO respect for the women of their country" Maoris dont let women speak on the marai, and females generally have much lower status in the culture.

I dont think Bush should be killed (or osama) but America should be held accountable for what its done/ doing in the world (enviromentally as well as politically)

like i said, wutever...

bush has signed the most death warrents in america. EVER. He kills.

thats not good ehy. thats bad. bush is a bad. osama is a bad too, dont get me wrong. but hey , how about the poverty in the world? thats pretty bad. im sure usa could do something about it.... to truely fix it, and stop the amount of people that died in the WTC from dying of hunger, every second, or hour or day or 'wutever' it is.

Jeepers.

this dude isnt allowed to have a song he dosnt deserve one really , ok he might be right in his world but sumone who commands sum1 else to fly a plane into a building should be taken out for his crimes ok ? that is just me but im scared about the whole thing now that he is marking aussie

i apoligised allready for my previous posts, but i will say this. you imagine explaining to some lil 3 year old (and if you dont have kids skip this, you just wont get it) im sorry, mummy and daddie wont be comming home again because of some mad fuck thats hiding out in a country full of and run by other mad fucks. there is no excuseing his actions nor that of the talibahn. if it costs so called 'inocent' lives...then so be it. america supports and upholds the same beliefs and freedom that we do. bin-laden is a complete fuckin wacko. bush is the president of the united states of america. yet you post such shit as to draw a parrelle between them both? make me fuckin laff. and btw, there are a lotta fuct things in this world. its not up to the states to save everyone zeist. they cant look after the trouble in their own country.

yanno, country's leaders are elected by the people. george bush has the hardest job in the world, you think its his fault that there is povity in the world? yet they have proved one man responsible for the wtc. and he wasnt elected by anyone.


all spelling mistakes are the direct result of wagging to much high school many years ago and will not be held accountable to the poster of this post.

um, that post wasnt directed at anyone in particular. just to anyone that thinks bin laden shouldnt be terminated, or that the states is a worse country than afgahnistan.

=) and have a nice evening.

hey bob, I dont think Bush should be killed (or osama) <--wtf..?? i think you are missing the point. he is responsible for countless acts of terrorism. maybee i should repeat that, he is responsible for countless acts of terrorism. and dont post meaningless shit about america violating human rights...do they activley practise female circomsission? do they make their women walk behind them and cover their faces (and there are many more that i will not post due to the offending nature of them) gee man, just out of curiosity, given the choice, where would you live? american or afgahnistan? hmmm, hard choice aye...

As we have discussed privately Amp.lified there are many civilians in Panama, Iraq, Kosovo and now Afganistan have to explain the kids etc that their parents are dead because of the retaliation by america for the actions of someone they have nothing to do with.

My point is that bombing civilians who have nothing to do with it is not going to make things better. I dont believe american bombing is going to stop the terrorist only increase support for them from certain groups. To stop the terrorist is going to take a lot of intelligence work and surgical strikes on small targets, not carpet bombing. The israeli special forces and intelligence services are an example of the kind of work its going to take.

I have never said that terrorism or al queda or osama bin laden is better than the states but i find it quite rich that americans can be so hipocritical (not the best word for it but close enough)

hugz...

Yeah, pretty much. I think it's wise to remember that the US (except in zany conspiracy theories) isn't intending to kill civilians. The ones they have killed have of course been regrettable, but quite minimal when you consider the number of military targets they have actually bombed.

War isn't pinpoint accurate, and not everything can be achieved on the ground. (e.g. how do you get your troops into Northern Afghanistan easily and quickly when there are air defences not taken out?).

It's all a bit catch-22 though isn't it, which is worrying. If they don't do anything, terrorist groups may get stronger (accumulation of cash, resources etc) and if they do, they may encourage more disillusioned people to join the terrorist cause. I don't propose to know the answer, but the US has to tread very carefully. :-/

crazy example i know but, if a NZer commanded some people to fly into buildings in France, killing thousands of people, France would not bomb New Zealand. ne matta wut. i doubt even america would bomb us, in the same situation. They want afghan nuked anyhoo, this seemes to be 'convienient'... a coupla thousand lives aint much in the scheme of things....[dont shoot me !]

Killing afghanistan to stop terrorism is fucked!!!!
intelligence and special forces is a whole different concept tho.

*biting tounge, not saying anything further*

=)

amp.lified: Say what you wanna say, its a forum. : )

ok, time to do the decent thing.

giznad, bob, prysm, voiceinsideyou and anyone else that may think my posts where a little harsh.

im truly sorry for my comments and sto0pidness at redirecting my anger at you guys. not a smart thing to do. i hope that you'll not take me as you may have, and know that what i said wasnt reallt meant at you. i knew some people that where killed in the wtc and i reacted without really thinking. while my opinion in no way changes, i would really just like to apologise and clear the air.

hugz to you all.

Nah, it's cool amp.lified, we all probably felt like that when we saw that shit happening on TV. It's big of you to realise that you may have overreacted and to apologise, it's easily to get tempers up when steressful stuff like this happens.

Zeist: Yes, a few thousand isn't very much in the scheme of things, but it indicates a willingness to commit more such events, and when there were thousands killed so easily so quickly, that's worrying, right - many more attacks could be launched if the US doesn't do anything.

The airstrikes have to occur to a certain extent before special ops can go in. They have to be able to get the special ops in, via air usually, so need the air defenses and intelligence of the Taleban destroyed first. However, I do agree that the air campaign seems to have gone on quite extensively, maybe too far.

I'm not sure which is the best way to bring down the Taleban (which I still think need to go if terrorism is to be reduced), but the US obviously thinks this is the best way. I guess it's pretty argueable ah?

I havent thought this out one bit, but, has the US ever done a propoganda drop?

for us propaganda just read the paper, watch the news.... hmmm didn't all this start because they want to run a oil pipeline through afganistan? from the caspian sea?

why aren't the newspapers telling us that eh?

aparantley they dropped some shit about the aid parcels not being bombs. (they where the same colour) go figure...

=)

Cactus: Yes, but I dont think the herald gets delivered to afganistan... : )

apology accepted amp.lified. You have a valid opinion, its just I switch off to all things valid and not when people stoop to the low-point of personal attacks in an argument (debate) i.e. "you're a fucking idiot".

About the treatment of women - thats disgusting I know. However, its in their culture.Its what they've always believed to be right and not known anything else. Whilst this doesn't make it the least bit better, telling them to change is comparable to trying to convince western culture that we should all wear no clothing at all. I have no respect for the extreme end of the islamic faith, or any religous belief that makes the follower believe he is better than anyone else (this includes most protestant christian faiths). But simply because I have no respect for thier beliefs or way of life is absolutely no reason to kill them.

Bob quite rightly pointed out that christian societies have killed non-believers. Northern Ireland is quite a lot more deep than that - its not just religon at all there. But have you ever heard of the crusades? CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY OR WE WILL KILL YOU. Thats the guts of it. What about the spanish inquisition? Not the nicest of human beings, also very very christian. If you think female circumcision is too offensive to talk about, have a look at what those sick fucks did to women they wanted to talk.

Now I hate the people responsible for the terrorist attcks on the USA. They are scum. But because the SUSPECTED person responsible is in a country where people live by different customs to us which we feel are incorrect is certainly not a reason to kill them and destory thier homes.

You can't bing out an emotive argument about telling the little american kid about his mummy and daddy being killed in the WTC and expect not to get a lot back about the same thing done by americans. Except generally, the little kid won't be told about mum and dad, because the little kid will be killed as well.

I understand that opinions are formed on information, moral makeup and experience (mainly). My own opinion on such matters were generated when I became good friends with a serbian girl a few years ago. Shes a kiwi now but still has horror stories of her youth, and what her family has been thru back home. I guess from there I studied up a lot, questioned things a lot more and disreguarded most of our "news" as propoganda when it came to USA killing people.

You knew people in the WTC amp.lified which will of course swing your opinion to the extreme other end. Its like I don't believe in the death penalty at all, I think its completely illogical killing someone for killing. But if a family member or friend were murdered, I know myself that my opinion there would be fairly extreme on the wanting to kill the killer.

Osama is very evil and very wrong.

Bush is very evil and very wrong.

Neither the american people nor the afghani people as a whole are at all evil or wrong.

p.s. Incidentally, Osama is Saudi, not Afghani. Although thier races may appear similar to us, its like the chinese race being compared to the thai race or the kiwi race being compared to the german race.

agreed.

I agree that christianity is fucking terrible. In fact, I think every religion has killing or persecution and a hell of a lot of fascism to its name.

Sure, a lot of the news is bullshit, and de facto US propoganda and it's about reading between the lines. On the other hand, the US government probably know a lot of things that may in fact help their case (in defense to the public), but cannot be revealed in case it jeopardises the security of their actions in Pakistan, or reveals where they have spies and intelligence operations. Unfortunately this leaves us having to just "trust" the US government, which I don't like doing at all when there is no evidence of trustworthiness.

I think here you have to be careful saying "Bush" is evil. The president is NOT the be all and end all in the US system, as I'm sure you actually realise. Many of his decisions must be ratified by congress and /or the senate and his defense department staff. I also think you'd find every US president doing the same thing as Bush is doing now, and it is probably the will of a good proportion of the US people. You may have noticed Bush's approval ratings rise from 50% to 80% in the last two months. If the US's action is indeed evil, that makes a good proportion of the country in support of evil acts. Just a thought there.

I think you need to be reminded that the Afghan people are not being purposefully killed. That's just not true. The Taleban are, yes - people who support Osama and terrorism. The civilian casualties are not wanted or intended. The US has never said they have a 'reason' to kill civilians, they're not trying to do that (that doesn't help them get rid of terrorism at all). They're not trying to destroy Afghanistan either. You'll note that all targets aimed for have been military onces. They haven't been aiming to take out infrastructure that is non-military related. The Americans have got enough brains to realise that killing civilians does not help their aim at all, so they have a clear incentive to minimise such losses.

I know some (stupid) people are of the "kill them all" and "kill the ragheads" mentality, and I hate that attitude. But that doesn't mean all of us who support some sort of military action are of that attitude.

Regarding the oil pipeline through Afghanisatan (+ Turkmenistan etc) - that has been a majority central Asian initiative for a long time. There is a lot of conspiracy theories going around about it in relation to US attacks, but the truth is that the initiative was taken up by a consortium of local players in the region called CentGas, formed in October 1997. The consortium consisted of:

Delta Oil Company Limited (Saudi Arabia) (15%)
The Government of Turkmenistan (7%)
Indonesia Petroleum (INPEX) (Japan) (6.5%)
ITOCHU Oil Exploration Co (CIECO) (Japan) (6.5%)
Hyundai Engineering & Construction Co (Korea) (5%)
The Crescent Group (Pakistan) (3.5%)

They approached a US company UNOCAL for the other 46.5% investment and UNOCAL abandoned the project in March this year after concerns over the treatment of woman in Afghanistan and the Taliban. The pipeline never got started being built I don't think... (but I could be wrong)

I'm not sure what has happened with the project since then. My point was that it was not initially a US led project, that's all.

I do they find Osama and the other hiugh ranking Al Queda members, take them to the World Court and then convict them. I think if the Taliban were overthrown and a new democratic government was installed, Afghanistan could have a bright future, especially if they get aid to help them profit from an oil pipeline, which could bring them significant revenue for rebuilding their country after so many years of war.

Well put.

The americans have an interest in not having the pipeline. (I cant remember where i read it so it may be innaccurate)

The Northern alliance have almost identicle beliefs and human right records as the Taliban (I think theyre are slightly less strict on muslim law , but very harsh on the population/ corrupt.

The only point id add to the bombing is how do they hit mistaken targets, like the red cross.. twice. (Im not a conspiracy theorist, but it makes you wonder) I am more in favor of an israeli styled intelligence/ special force rather than carpet bombing.

"christianity is fucking terrible" - That is a very byest comment. Be more specific please. christianity is not terrible at all. Some christians are.

Bush IS evil [death warrents bastard]

why kill the teleban? Osama bin laden did the whole plane thing... not teleban.!

tbc

The taliban are corrupt - the afghani people hate them. This is no reason to kill them.

Imagine if someone from Australia done the plane things and then came and lived in New Zealand. The USA then used him as a scapegoat for the attacks and said he was responsible with NO HARD EVIDENCE. Our government would be not doing its job (protecting all its civilians) if it just handed him over to be executed.

Now you say Bush is not evil.... this is not true. I almost believe he is the new antichrist. The world is dying, fact. Global warming is one of the chief causes, fact. The USA puts out a 3rd of the wntire worlds pollution, fact. Mobil paid off Bush so he would break the kyoto pollution treaty "for economic reasons" and continue to make no attempt at cutting down thier pollution rate, fact.

Evil? Yes. Bringing an eventual end to the lives of everyone on the planet - or their descendants - is much worse than killing a few thousand innocents in a terrorist attack.

Breaking the star wars treaty, so he can build missile "defence" systems (PAH!), global missile warfare. Evil? Yes.

Funding a study on mexican children in mexico because it was legal there but illegal in the USA, in which to test the new treatment they needed many "controls" so those children would recieve no treatment and die definitely, evil, yes.

Breaking the treaty concerning biological, genetic and gas warfare, evil YES! Developing diseases to drop on places is fucking evil.

This is what happend with the Taliban - whilst I hate thier views and some of the things they do, I admire thier will to not bow down and lick the boots of the worlds biggest bully and terrorist group (USA) by trying to protect ALL of its civilians. If tomorrow the entire world thought your neighbour was behind the attcks, would you just say "sweet, they can come take him and kill him".

Had more to say here but can't remember properly and Havoc is on.

Good thread. Nice to talk Zeist

while its true that osama (if indeed it was him, but c'mon people, the powers that be arent a bunch of idiots, there is SO much that we are baseing our opinions on that we dont know the first thing about really)was the one that was responsible for the attacks, the USA didnt ask, they demanded that he be given up by the taliban. now while i dont know everything, i do know this. you dont fuck with america. if they say, you do! and they are now feeling the wrath of what happens when you throw them the bird. and please, all these comments like "imagine if it was new zealnd or australia" you simply can't use other countries as an analogy. nz or australia share absolutley nothing in common with any of the currant circumstances facing afgahnistan or their history. the fact of the matter is that it was afgahnistan that osama took refuge in. if he is so inocent, or even a decent human being, wouldnt he step forward instead of hiding like a coward and watching his fellow 'brothers' die in the bombing raids?
i also think its important to remember that we here in new zealand, dont really know the full story. and our varying opinions bare testominy to this fact. and while i do not condone death, i feel that should he be guilty, its the only justice that any of the greiving people touched by this man in the past can be given.
i also think that if you stopped and thought about it for one minute, really seriously thought about it, put your family or loved ones in that wtc building/s...there is no way on this planet that you would be showing him any PC whatsoever. and if you can honestly tell me that you would feel compassion for such a person, then you are a much, much, better person than i am. and i concern myself not with the thoughts of any of those people in afgahnistan that may be losing loved ones. for the bigger picture says that this whole thing is for the freedom to not be terrorised. and for my money, the middle east doesnt get terrorised by the states.

your right giznad, dayum good thread. =)

Sorry, I meant to clarify what I meant on christianity. I was meaning that many, many crimes have been committed under the banner of christianity in the past. Just agreeing with previous sentiments. Sounded a bit bigoted and biased, I agree.

I'm concerned about the reliance on the Northern Alliance. But this is a means of fighting the Taleban that doesn't involve as much bombing, so I support it in that sense. Just as long as they don't give them too much power if the Taleban fall.

Zeist: The Taleban and Osama are pretty much hand in hand, from a lot of the stuff I've read - including on Albawaba.com (a Middle Eastern arab website). I've discussed this on an earlier thread also, so can't really be bothered repeating myself, but Al Queda apparently use drug money to fund themselves (Opium mainly, I think) and the Taleban turn a blind eye to this, and the activities of Al Queda in exchange for money. Though this doesn't mean they should be 'killed', they are obstructing the path to justice for the terrorists. If they had handed Osama over, he would have gone to the world court cleanly, but they have obstructed this.

I think it's a little like housing a criminal in your house, knowing of what he is doing wrong, recieving stolen property and such things. Well, at least that's what I think is happening.

Giznad: On the subject of global warming, I don't agree with what the US has done at all either. However, I can see their side. Despite your comments otherwise, global warming is less than fact. I could give you many references otherwise (if I could be bothered finding them among my IE history). Nevertheless, I think the decision was wrong, and that it would have been prudent to take action to reduce emissions.

On the evidence against Al Queda. Well. I think it's pretty likely, and the US no doubt has good evidence, and good reasons for not releasing it. (e.g. exposing their spies and suchforth) For goodness sakes, the hijackers have had direct links to Al Queda... I mean, gezz. That's some bitch-ass conspiracy theory you need to have to defend that view.

I don't know what 'study' you're talking about either. References? Sounds dodgy though on the US part. I'd like to read about it so I could form some form of opinion.

You seemed to have no comment on my illustration of the fact that the US people are 80% behind Bush, and that the US system relies on more than one man, and continue to place all blame solely on one man in your arguments. Care to explain?

Man, I wish I had some goddam company. It's lonely debating alone.

sorry voice, i keep forgetting to keep an eye on this thread..=p

damn it i just kicked the power point out and lost my post :~( Ill try to recap )~:

I guess bush is a scapegoat for anti 'them'. The stats that show that america is right behind bush in what he says and does illustrates to us that we should be weary of their entire country, not just their present leader.

With reference to housing a crim in your house, the officials would not bomb the fuck out of your house to get the crim out

simpill

No, not "simpill" - that's exaggerating. Housing a criminal knowing of his criminal activity is illegal. They can send you to jail for that.

I think the US is looking at it from that perspective. The Taleban is harbouring a network of criminals that's crime (amongst other things) includes purposefully killing large numbers of people - Americans, Muslims, etc etc from lots of countries.

The Taleban refuses to give Osama and Al Queda operatives up so they can be taken to the world court and tried for their crimes, so the US obviously thinks it appropriate that they are attacked, to put the pressure on them and prevent them from harbouring criminal atcivity that has cost the lives of thousands of people, not just in the WTC and Pentagon, but in other attacks by Al Queda.

You may argue the response is too harsh - that's fine. But a response of some kind is warranted - as I'm yet to hear any anti-US, or anti-bombing supporter come up with a better solution, that doesn't involve sitting around doing nothing and hoping that the terrorists don't attack again.

If someone suggests to me a solution, one that does not involve attacking the Taleban and Al Queda, but will dismantlye their terrorist groups and prevent further events - I'd be happy to consider it. I'm yet to hear such a suggestion from anyone, or any of the articles I've read written by anti-bombing supporters.

its such a touchy subject. war is never pretty...

what is hate? Is it Religion?

I kinda feel like im repeating myself.
Carpet bombing isnt effecting the al queda network. Intellegence and small special forces groups like the israeli use against hamas is the way things will need to be done. The al queda network is probably spread all over the world rather than just in afganistan, So its going to take years of international intelligence work to stop them and others.

The taliban have agreed to hand over osama to a neutral country for trial, tho this might be a delay tactic I think they should give them a chance. Or does america not have enough evidence?

Yeah, I agree. No kinds of attacks on other humans are pretty really.

I don't know what hate is, to tell you the truth. I'm not sure it's /equal/ to religion, but some religion involves hatred towards others that see differently (fundamentalist religion), and hate towards some groups (e.g. devout catholics towards homosexuals). They're not equal though. It is a shame how many hate crimes have been carried out in the name of one religion or another though.

bob, your missing the point. it doesnt matter what the taliban have agreed to or what they have offered. its this simple. the states have made it clear that there is no alternitive. hand over bin laden or else. obviously they have the evidence. do you think this is a juvanile unimportant case? of course they have the evidence. its not just the states man, its the whole world thats backing them. c'mon, stop making excuses for the teliban. while you can sit here and make your comments on the whole thing, you simply dont know what your talking about. (bob, i dont mean that against you as an insult, please dont think it is) im afraid that this is the way it is, and the outcome will be wutever it is. i just thank god that the powers that be, are the powers that be! and not some lov'd up PC save the whales type. yanno, the guys in the pentagon etc, have a combined experience, that makes all the comments against america insulting. cant you guys see that? this whole thing is being run by MANY people. many people that are way more informed than we are. the more i think about it, the more clearer it gets, wutever we think doesnt mean shit! they will no doubt, do the best they think possible to acheive a result in this issue. give em a break aye? please dont condem the acts of a country that believes in the same things ours does. they are our brothers.

one last thought. its not like they struck back straight away btw. they gave them plenty of time. plenty!

have a think about it. =)

=)

Yeah Bob, I'm repeating myself too. I've repeatedly said that they are bombing initially so they can actually get the intelligence groups in safely. Israel can use special forces and such because they can get easy ground access (they're right next door, after all). The US cannot, hence the bombing to clear Taleban defenses, air defenses, training camps and suchforth. Now they are sending in special forces, and I expect the bombing to reduce at some point soon.

There are two objectives really. One is getting rid of terrorism especially, via special forces and intelligence. The other is removing the Taleban - who promotes terrorism. The bombing I assume is helping in this initiative - not in the destruction of the Al Queda network in particular. However, I assume bombing training camps limits Al Queda somewhat.

voice, nice post do0d....No, not "simpill" - that's exaggerating........... i didnt read that b4, some valid points there.

If america has so much evidence why is it afraid of a trial in a neutral country? I dont think Osama will ever make it to trial he will be executed or die in the fight. I also think that america doesnt have enough evidence to convict him in a court of law. altho in my mind he is undoubtedly supporting the Al Queda network which is responsible for the bombing etc.

Amplified:

Saying America is right to do this cos no one can do anything about it isnt a way to justify it. Just cos you cant stop something doesnt make it right.

".....the guys in the pentagon etc, have a combined experience, that makes all the comments against america insulting. cant you guys see that? this whole thing is being run by MANY people. many people that are way more informed than we are. the more i think about it, the more clearer it gets, wutever we think doesnt mean shit! they will no doubt, do the best they think possible to acheive a result in this issue. give em a break aye? please dont condem the acts of a country that believes in the same things ours does. they are our brothers." (sorry for a long quote)

I cant believe you would say this, you have far more blind faith in authority than i thought possible. And you obviously dont know many americans(or are one yourself) they are generally amoung the most ignorant people in the supposedly educated world.

By your rational Israel should destroy Palistine, the Spanish wipe out all Basque people, British kill almost ALL OF IRELAND. If someone does something to you you can bomb them without trial and kill all those around them. What about the rainbow warrior bombing that was state terrorism where a new zealander(i think he was?) died. Should we have bombed the government building that the guy who ordered it was sitting in?. Its only one guy but where do you draw the line?

America... your talking about the great nation that tested nuclear weapons on its own civilians.

"Despite your comments otherwise, global warming is less than fact." - are you serious?

"Housing a criminal knowing of his criminal activity is illegal. They can send you to jail for that. " Interesting you should bring up law in this
1) america arent interesting in the law of it (neutral country and all - do you really think they would let him go free if they couldnt prove it in a court of law)
2) Muslim law DICTATES that you are to not allowed to give up someone you have offered hospitality to and you should die defending him/her if required. and before you say what a stupid law, christainity has almost the identicle law for protecting someone who asks for sancturary.
3)Remember america refusing to hand over 3 of its service men in japan for the rape of a 13 year old girl? they refused to hand them over to japan even with overwhelming evidence.

What im worried about is the fact that america is so hipocritical of other countries that have been fighting terrorism for years. Its set a dangeous new precident.

Amplified some of your comments:
"now while i dont know everything, i do know this. you dont fuck with america. if they say, you do! and they are now feeling the wrath of what happens when you throw them the bird."
"...we are baseing our opinions on that we dont know the first thing about really)"
"i also think its important to remember that we here in new zealand, dont really know the full story."

Your entire arguement has so far has been that america is big so they can do what they want, and that we dont know anything so should leave it up to people you you say do know everything... Get a clue and find out some of your own info. then you can get your own opinion rather than jumping on people who have an opinion and are questioning the rational of "the powers that be" (i dont mean that against you as an insult, please dont think it is) I for one dont look up and admire bullies and hope that if i suck up to them they wont turn on me (Go find out what happened to our lamb exports to america or even our beef 10 years ago)

Voice: I guess i am questioning the hipocracy of the american government the terrorists were after all mostly trained in america and america is still telling other nations who have been battling terrorism for years to sit down and talk it out. I think americas actions wont achieve what they or the rest of the world desires - peace.

Yeah, I disagree with some of Amp.lified's attitude too, so I'm not really going to go there. I do not put blind faith in the US government, but I think that in this case the evidence is pretty good against Al Queda and bin Laden.

The Taleban's offer to hand over bin Laden was bullshit. They'd never hand him over - that was just a stalling tactic. In using this as a basis for an alternative you're putting more faith in the words of the Taleban (a corrupt, oppressive government itself) then the US government. That's your prerogative - but I have /more/ faith in the US govt. than the Taleban.

Global warming is less than fact. As i actually said above (please actually read my post, before attacking me) I think it is /likely/ too, and I don't agree with the US's stance. However, I can also see that global warming is not a proven fact. Anyone who understands science realises that scientific discoveries can not be proven to be 'fact' easily. They are just based on models of how we, as humans think things work. There is much uncertainty about the ecological/environmental implications of carbon emissions, and there is much we do not know about the carbon cycle. In particular, ice ages have come and gone over the history of earth, and we as humans with a very short history have very little to go on in terms of the changes that the Earth 'might' undergo if there are massive forces at work. Our models cannot accurately factor this in, so it is possible there is some bias.

Yes, temperatures have risen over the last 30-100 years. But establishing a link between this in carbon emissions is a difficult business. The statistical and geological/environmental modelling involved is complex and involves much uncertainty. I've read several analyses myself, with contradictory results at the end of the modelling.

Having said that, I think it would be prudent for us to be making an effort to reduce what is, after all, pollution. Do a bit of reading Bob - there are many, many opinions, theories, models and analyses on global warming with results on both sides of the argument.

Well, I agree with the principles of christianity about as much as that of islam, so I can say what I like about either of them. As religions I find them each as bad as each other. They all involve de facto opression, in my opinion. This thread isn't about religion though. This war isn't about religion, really.

Again, your faith that the Taleban would actually hand over bin Laden is astounding. It's not going to happen buddy, it never was. The Taleban NEED bin Laden and Al Queda. They're interdependent. (see earlier posts, I'm not repeating myself)

I agree. The Americans are entirely hypocritical. I like them less than you do on many issues. They are arseholes on the world trade scene, they are arseholes about their military's bad reputation off shore, and they are often a little to keen to 'send in the troops'. I agree.

BUT. As I said earlier - no-one has provided me with an alternative solution - "one that does not involve attacking the Taleban and Al Queda, but will dismantle the terrorist groups and prevent further events." I haven't heard any 'better ideas' yet from you anti US-ers. In fact, I haven't heard one idea that isn't based on believing the words of the corrupt Taleban. I repeat my challenge: do you have another solution?

do0d, you are so missing the point. these people (no im not american btw, theyre fuckin idiots)have about 57 million trillion more times an ideah about what is happening and what to do about it more than you do. why cant you understand that. this isnt an issue about questioning the powers that be. do0d, some mental fuck orderd the death of all the people in those buildings. lets put aside all other arguments of past history for now, because they dont change what happened at all. and canocentrate on the issue that started this thread. bin laden. this is what its about. it amuses me that you have all blown this way out of proportion. america was attacked. they gave the taliban an opportunity to give up osama, they dint do it, now they paying the price. its really really simple. its nothing to do with questioning authority, but if you want to know, i have complete faith in the american system. contrary to your beliefs, there is more good in the world than corruption my friend. there isnt a conspiricy theory behind every corner, thats in the movies do0d. so, to recap. this is a simple matter. there is nothing more to read into this apart from US has asked for something, they didnt get it. afgahnistan is now paying the price. im not confuzed by it, why are all of you lot?

=)

and im still scratching my head, wtf has pollution got to do with any of this?????????

I don't think it's right to dismiss it like that Amp, man. Nothing's ever that simple. it's a serious situation, and if I could find a better, credible solution, I would be the first one to be condeming the US attacks. But I can't, so I am tentatively supporting them.

Well, global warming was used as an example of the US's "evil". I was merely pointing out that it's not a fact as such, and there is uncertainty around it. I guess it's not entirely relevant, but I couldn't let falsities be spread.

my post wasnt meant towards you voice, your posts make sense. its the condemers of what is happening at the moment. thats who it was for. they seem to be missing everypoint that this war is actually about. blamming everything under the sun for this situation when really, its the states retalliating against an attack on their country. fair bloody enough i say!

=)

voice, you comming bowling on wednesday the 21rst? what about you bob, itll be a good night, heaps of biggies will be there.....

?????

Yeah, I realise that man, but I disagreed with a few of your points, so thought I'd argue with em anyway. *grin*

*gasps* Bowling! Hmm, isn't that an Aucklanders thing? I'm in Wgtn, oh woe is me.

Im not saying i believe the taliban but the americans have said no negotiation what so ever (while at the same time telling everyone else in the world to sort out their problems through negotitation) and they could be talking at the same time as bombing, if it didnt work then america would look like it had tried to do the right thing which it is in sore need of at the moment. My comments were -

"The taliban have agreed to hand over osama to a neutral country for trial, tho this might be a delay tactic I think they should give them a chance. Or does america not have enough evidence?"

My solution all along has been precision bombing of the terrorist camps and special forces operations around the world. Not the invasion of afganistan(what are they going to do when the northern alliance are just as bad?). The work on stopping terrorism is going to happen with intelligence gathered from around the world not inspiring new attacks against participating countries as the attacks on the taliban are no doubt doing (except next time they arent going to be able to find just one country to attack it will likey come from a country with little internal policing - south american maybe or african.

Someone with power should be very careful how they use it else they find more and more people wanting to take it off them. This is encoded in almost all laws that we abide by, a policeman is held to a high set of standard as he has more power to use and misuse. Same for employer, land lord etc.

Amp:
Im not about to put aside all history or past behaviours of either the Americans anyone else, lets see how easy you put aside your feelings of your 7 killed friends in the WTC

If you forget history you are doomed to repeat it over and over. (Doesnt mean you should hold a grudge tho )

This is hardly conspiracy theory im talking about the actions you see on TV every night and whether they are right or not.

Other than that if you so believe what will happen will happen and your quite happy being ignorant then stop reading this thread. No insult intended but you keep repeating the same thing.

Voice:
On(off) the topic of Greenhouse gas emmisions: Individually the effect of various gasses have been linked (not proven mind you) to global warming. CO2 is one of those which America produces 25% of the world emmissions ( with only 1/20 of the population) While it hasnt been proven there is ALOT of evidence to say that they are linked (the hole in the ozone layer is another similar thing) yes the earth has been through mass climatic changes in th past but i for one dont want to wait till we are fried till we find out. Dont assume that cos i have an opinion different to you or i didnt want to get off topic that i havent read different points of view.

It was brought up as an example of america not following WORLDWIDE convention which almost every other developed and developing country was prepared to sign.

Just for the record.
I do think Osama is guilty but id prefer him in a court before being killed.

Something like the WTC isnt an excuse to do whatever the fuck you like. If someone killed your mum and you went to kill them you might be justified (you still go to jail tho) however if you killed his family who were protecting him from your wrath youd be worse than him.

I dont think the taliban are right but they are a different culture and its hard to put our moral judgements on them.

this is boring no song for this guy please

he has his right to what eva he wants , ya for him keep it in ur pants bin laden

usa will never win ..

you will never win against a fanatic who is a true believer... american soilders get paid... afga's do it coz they beileve..

care

Shut up Forest. If you don't like it, stay out of the Current Affairs thread, and don't demean those of us who are interested in stimulating conversation/debate.

Bob - I agree with you, pretty much. Precision bombing is th way to go, but I would also extend the bombing to Taleban targets, as the Taleban are supporting terrorism and with them it power it will be very, very hard to rid the world of terrorism, when they effectively thrive off it. I also agree that special forces are the way to go, once it is safe to do so. I expect the campaign against terrorism in other countries will largely be fought in this way, and contend that the bombing and severe attacks in Afghanistan are due to the unique "state sponsored" nature of the terrorism.

I also agree that the US gets away with a lot, and has been guilty of bullying. Some bullying has been useful though, some countries need tellings off to get their shit sorted (to put it in general, crude terms). Alas, this has made the US very hypocritical, and hypocrisy is one thing I really despise. (it's a form of arrogant ignorance, if you ask me)

(On the repeating bit, and 'happy being ignorant' bit, were you referring to me or Amp?)

Yup, well you seemed shocked by my comment that global warming is less than "fact". Above, you admit this, which I think is good. I agree that there is evidence, and neither do I want to wait to be fried, hence thinking it is prudent to cut back NOW. I didn't mean to insult your reading, but you seemed quite certain that it was "fact", and that indicated to me that you hadn't read much about it. I retract that statement and apologise.

Just a wee note: Your stats are a little misleading, I suppose. Sure, only 1/20th of the population, but what proportion of the world economy, like 30%? Of course wealthier, more industrialized populations are going to produce more pollution. Ever played the PC game Civilisation? *grin* Hehe. But yes, their pollution and level of emissions is digusting.

I'd like Osama to be tried too. I just don't think it's going to happen. I think a terrorist like him would rather die fighting, in fact I believe that's probably in his interpretation of the Koran somewhere!

mcenergy - Yes, it will be difficult to root terrorism out from everywhere, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying the best we can - within reason (logistical and financial).

And I think when you're a soldier you're not just fighting because you're getting paid - you're fighting to save your own goddam life, regardless of what/who you believe in!

u shut up what sumone who flys a plane into a build is right?

im a chuchie but i dont go round forcing everybody to go to my church do i

listen to what im saynn he is right for preaching the word if he wants but u dont kill ppl cause the wana do stuff that u dont do that is why he is getn bombed

agreed. but your still missing the point. its a masive fuckin point to btw. they are being bombed for a number of reasons. but firstly, they have not complied with what was asked of them. i know i keep repeating myself, so do you though bob. my personal loss, while hard, has not a huge amount of bearing on my comments. it was responsible for my unfortunate hit out at giznad some days ago, but apart from that, whether i knew anyone in there or not is beside the point. are we forgetting, that straight after the attack, america assured the world that they would find who was responsible, and deal justice apon them? now i know that most of us speed through our weekends etcand it may have seemed overnight, but they didnt hitback over night. they gathered intelligence, with the help of the global community, pieced together events, then arrived at their conclussion. they offered an altimatim (god my spelling sucks) and acted apon their word when the ultimatim was ignored. that is essentially why this is happening now. not because of iraq, not because of the crusades, not because of panama, not because of christianity, or even pollution. why, can no-one see this? their are no other undelying factors to be considerd. think back to the day you awoke to the news that america had been attacked by terrorism in the most unimaginable way.........its cut and dry people.

=/

ppl in this world are free and he has taken it all away from us now ?

what u get on plane to go overseas im sure ur not sitting there worry what da fuck is gana happen

u wouldnt no dont piss me off im not always right but flying a plane into a build is way not rite

woops, ^^ bob, bowling?

(You got Ultimatim the second time Amp. Nice work. *grin*)

I think the arguments all are around disgagreements over the 'strength' of the response. I think no-one thinks the US should do nothing - but we disagree on the size of the attack, and what targets it should be extended to. I'm sure there is such disagreement in the top ranks of the US military and government too, perhaps they have similar discussions (minus the Anti-US rhetoric, obviously!).

Forest - maybe you should read back over the rest of the posts on the thread. Bob has very good arguments about why you shouldn't just go around bombing countries miscellaneously. I don't agree with them all, but he makes good points. Everyone believes that Osama should pay, if it was indeed him that did it (I believe it is, Bob is not 100% sure). I, and Bob think he should go to court, the world court (or whatever its offical name is?)... others think he should be killed. None of us agree with what he has done (assuming it was him and Al Queda). That doesn't nec. mean it is right to kill him.

i didnt say kill him ok ? i mean bomb the shit out of his bases his army his planes, this is how u make him suffer take away his resourses no killing him is no the answer i agree with u dude !!! ok

just wipen the guy out is the easy way

but i hope u get why im im angry about him ok

im sick of arguyin with u dude

peace ?

another good post voice, but lets not forget, its not just about the wtc, he has been linked to many many others causing death.

hey voice, you ever come up to aucks? love to meet ya one day man

Amp: Yes, you're right. Embassy bombings, USS Cole, etc. And his right hand man, Zawahiri was linked to the killing of those tourists in Egypt not so long ago.

Haha, don't come up to Auckland that much/at all, no. Made it up there earlier in the year, before I was really into the dance scene and managed to drag some people to Fu - but they weren't into it. Anyway, that's beside the point!

hey amplified you full of crap bro,what do you love so much about the states,dont you watch the x files?

Oh dear.... that sounded like a cohesive argument, eh Amp? And how do you respond, my friend?

Forest - forest......... forest HAHAHAHA!

Ahaha...

Aha.... anyhow, america, terrorists, death, and osama. Whilst this has been the most exciting thread for me for quite a long time, my head cannot think of words that form a decent argument at the mo. And besides forest posted here (reminding us all not to take anything tooo seriously) so I couldn't stop laughing.

Wicked to meet you amp.lified - looks like we'll be having a lot more fun times

I'm still backing Bob though (thanks for the CD by the way, nice. Come borrow mauro, tiesto live etc ASAP if you like). In saying that I disagree with the comments (by ALL yo mo fo's) that all americans are idiots - its just most of them are. Theres millions of really good people that are american that really humble me... I know you were probably joking/exagerating by generalising so much. But hey...

Its a matter of time before the USA's empire falls. People have told me no, they're simply undefeatable now. If history has taught us one thing its that all great empires, no matter how invincible they seem, will fall. Romans, British (to a lesser degree), mongolians etc etc.

The sep 11 attacks showed how vunerable the most "invincible" nation on earth is, and is perhaps a sign of the way its all going to go down one day...

America has abused its power, been selective murderers, bullies and I hate most things the american government has done to the world and its own people. However, I'd much perfer that to living under an extremist islamic dictator.

Idealism and shit.

Probably during the week I'll have a better post...

indeed we will be giznad. was a pleasure. voice, dakstuh. is a mate in real. so my response would be, dak ya mupet! haha.

but seriously, this has been a very interesting thread. its funny how after meeting people from the boards, your argumentitive state changes somewhat. there are many many valid points that we ALL have shared in this thread (cept maybee one nameless person) and i apologise once again for anything said that was on a personal level. topical debate is healthy, and i believe it was giznad that said, never fail to question what you hear (or words to that effect) how true that is. cohesivley, we offer a very interesting perception of what is happening within the middle-east at present. we are very lucky to live in this country, so far away from any significant trouble. i have enjoyed reading your views and opinions, and strangley, have a new found respect fot the idealisms of others. bob, voice, giznad, cheers guys.

a great thread.

=)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=227376&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

its been a while....

yeah it has

i guess this wee discussion has done its dash.

fuck this was a worthy thread. i think we should all get a million points for it aye......

=]

I think we did once the points system changed!

Amp - don't worry, I got into more arguments about similar issues in another thread, and the new in vogue thing for me to argue about is Nike, multinational companies and capitalism. Hehe. Me vs. the rest of Biggie, basically! *grin*

Incidentally, when the points switch went ahead, I went from 20th on the members list to 3rd. I blame this thread entirely.

I really should go and do my research before posting this, but: I was browsing some paper or news magazine or something bored the other day, and came across the mention of some book (title cant remember) by some author (name cant remember...), who had an interesting idea, which intrigued me. I quite like it actually, its a nice break from our self-righteous anti-American rambling.
The idea was this:

The events of Sept 11 were not the result of America's own crap foreign policy, but “a desperate backlash against modern society by a culture and religion that refuses to move with the times.”

Yeah, I quite like that actually.

why hasnt he been caught yet? that is all im gana ask

fucking read through old posts and how ppl have changed is funny

mc merrrrrr :-p

How have they changed, my dear Forest?

oh dear this old thread...

(opinion only clause is in force, ie; all sentences end with "in my opinion" even though you cant see it).

well, america is by far still the greater evil. Its interesting now that Tony Blair has had some gumption and will try and help the afghanistanians.

America is keeping the prisoners in cuba becuase there was no jails in america they deemed shitty enuogh for the "disgusting raghead/sand nigger enemy of america".

I also heard that they were in the Phillipines investigating "terrorist activity". What gives them the right? What if now some people bombed america (properly this time) saying it was a backlash to thier terrorist attacks on afghanistan? Two big fuckin wrongs doen't make a right.

Its easy enough to support them when they're bombing overseas. What if Bin laden is now hiding in New Zealand, and so we all got killed and maimed and our houses destroyed for it?

bottom line, bombing one of the poorest countries in the world is wrong.

Hehe, nice disclaimer!

Yeah, I too am very concerned over the US prisoner thing actually. They think their legal system is so great, why don't they just try them under regular federal law? I don't really see why they need special courts, or how they can justify them when they already have systems in place.

With regards to the Phillippines - they were asked and invited by Macapagal Arroyo and the government to come in. Basically, the US provide the $, the troops and the organisation ... and the Phillippines government retains stability and curb llegal activity by 'activists'. I'm not sure whether or not that is right or wrong, I guess it depends on the effects that these sect-type groups have on the generla population.

I think your bottom line is too simplistic (although strangely catchy!). What if a 'poor' country is harbouring a major threat? What if someone was hiding out in Chad, for instance, and building a nuclear weapons facility and recruiting people to a terrorist army with the aim of targetting Western countries? I mean, that's what we're really getting at here isn't it?

"How many human lives are we willing to expend in order to protect other human lives elsewhere?"

Voiceinsideyou: "I think your bottom line is too simplistic (although strangely catchy!). What if a 'poor' country is harbouring a major threat? What if someone was hiding out in Chad, for instance, and building a nuclear weapons facility and recruiting people to a terrorist army with the aim of targetting Western countries? "

ya well put voice, it just happens that the poorest countries are more inclined to corruption and lawless society. whats money got to do with it?

would like to debate further... but wearing a little thin.


(so what does he do???)
Whats money got to do with it? Well the attacks on america have hardly dented their annual budget (which is huge the way you think of God or the universe as big). Afghanistan, as it has been proven before, will never get over being so crippled. The starving, often disable children who did not get taken out by bombs have had destroyed what little value they had left in the country.

Your bottom line was cooler though voice, yet not as simple

You're getting at one of the thigns I am though - what makes an americans life worth more of anybody elses?

Thanks for clearing up the phillipines thing. From what we have been told (no way of telling if true or not...) it sounds like it was ok, helping out thier government.

Really fucked up the spelling and punctuation in that one... oops

That's okay about the spelling, I'm no better!

Well, we'll see if the Western/rich countries help out with their promised billions of dollars. They goddam better, or it jeopardises my defense of them all along, and I'd hate that. I don't think the value in the country has been greatly ruined by the attacks - the Taleban had done (and were doing) little to enhance the economic value of that country, unless you count encouraging the drug production industry, of course - of which most money went to our beloved warlords anyway.

I'm more optimistic about Afghanistans prospects, if only they can stick with Karzai through to proper democratic elections. of course, money needs to flow in quickly, and it's up to the Western countries to back their word now.

Well, the harsh thing is I think that some lives are worth more than others, just implicitly. I mean, if you had worked hard all your live, say earning a modest $25,000 a year at the peak of your career, dilligently paying taxes and then you were fatally illand there was one replacement heart to choose between you and a homeless bum with exectly the same problem - you'd be goddam pissed off if it was given to him above you. Does that not mean you implicitly value your life above his?

It's hard to say what I mean wwithout sounding elitist, but right now, I'd say that Helen Clark's life is worth a lot more than mine, as is my Dad's, as is money other people - just simply because of the capacity they have for adding value to the country compared to myself.

I'm not sure where that leaves us with regards to the US, but if they can generate enough wealth within themselves I guess the reality is that it does give them some power that we have no choice but to recognise. On the other hand, the US is dependent on the rest of the world too, so this limits their ability to put US lives infinitely above other lives in value for fear of retaliation.

I guess the problem is that its hard to quantify the risk to US lives, and indeed other 'Western' lives elsewhere, so hard to tell on cost/benefit the 'value' implicitly placed on a US/Western life by the US 'investment' in the war. If you lived in New York, I expect you'd be assessing the risk of terrorist activity quite highly.

I guess what I am haphazardly trying to get it is that we implicitly place value on human lives all the time, and it's neither PC nor easy to do, but often it's based on 'future wealth generation potential'. And how the hell does one assess that, you might ask? Good question, but not easy to answer, and I don't think I can do it. :-/