$700 Billion "bailout" denied!

the rigor mortis of liquidity

I've heard it will be anything from now to 18 months. Just check the property price index trend line. Its gone gangbusters over the last 5 years (like a syscraper) and at the moment its probably about .8 of one of those 5 years on the downward side of said skyscraper. I'd go with the 18 months.

Not that I understand most of this thread but



is officially my favourite quote of the day.

The simple fact of the matter is, this will ONLY affect the global rich. To most of the worlds population, this will make absolutely no difference to their lives.

Don't know about that. They won't be able to get home loans, jobs will disappear as capital backing for companies dries up etc etc.
It's always the poorer "less-involved-in-the-market" that end up getting shat on in these situations.

Don't know about that. They won't be able to get home loans, jobs will disappear as capital backing for companies dries up etc etc.
It's always the poorer "less-involved-in-the-market" that end up getting shat on in these situations.

btw GW, I'm talking actual poor people here. The kind of poor that make up most of the world, not the kind of poor that you might have seen e.g. a person on the whole in NZ who's income in still in the top 20% of the world.

OK fair call, (except for the sneering arrogance of "not the poor you might have seen"

Sorry, I've just seen some whack ideas posted on biggie regarding rich/poor e.g. somebody claiming that 100k p.a. is not rich

Sorry, I've just seen some whack ideas posted on biggie regarding rich/poor e.g. somebody claiming that 100k p.a. is not rich

BREAKING NEWS
NZ stockmarket opens 4.3pc down... details soon

The New Zealand stock exchange has slumped this morning, falling 4.3 per cent on opening. It is the first of the world's exchanges to open after the shock congressional rejection of the US Govt bank bailout plan this morning.

About 10 minutes after the NZX opened at 10am today, the benchmark NZSX-50 index was down 137.46 points or 4.3 percent to 3051.08.

Among major stocks, Telecom was down 16c or 5.8 percent early to $2.62, Contact Energy was down 34c or 4.1 percent to $7.95, and Fletcher Building lost 36c or 5.2 percent to $6.55.

By 10am the NZ dollar was down to around US67.15c against the greenback, having been as high as US67.90c soon after the failure of the bailout to get the nod.

strange daze

The main thing about this is was it would be fast - immediate almost - but it doesn't actually guarantee that the loans would definitely recover, many could still fail.

sounds familiar though... not sure why

- reduce government regulation of the economy,

surely they will just suggest reganising things to get out of a potentiall recession?

- reduce the growth of government spending,
- reduce marginal tax rates on income from labor and capital,
- reduce government regulation of the economy,
- control the money supply to reduce inflation.

i'd put it in this sort of perspective, if I was a taxpayer and my tax was being used to bail out stupid marketing mistakes, i'd let em suffer....

Then use some savings to start a stock portfolio when they are at their weakest

I don't really see how this bailout is any different to individual welfare.

Individuals get into a situation where they need welfare through their own mistakes; same as companies.

Because with individuals it's part of the social contract - you are paying taxes and being represented so that those nets are there.
For companies, that's not part of the social contract at all.

Monday's plummet knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value

I just got that.

I want to hear what Peat has to say. Since he will probably know more about it than most.

man,...how can republicans fuck the world up more....

nuclear war maybe,

fuckers.

President Hugo Chavez said yesterday that Venezuela would develop a nuclear reactor for peaceful purposes in another challenge to Washington just days after Russia offered nuclear assistance to the socialist Latin American leader.

"In Venezuela we are interested in development of nuclear energy, of course for peaceful purposes, for medical purposes, for purposes of electricity generation," Chavez said.

even if it is ultimately you and the rest of the world that WILL suffer.

Its not as straight forward as "oh yeh its just the fat cats on wall street."

I don't understand why they needed a bill and a vote from the senate to pass it. I was under the impression the Fed already had the power to purchase bad debt from commercial banks.

Wouldn't you have to declare bankrupcy in a case like that though?

You can't just go "Oh, no, I've decided not to pay this mortgage anymore" without some repercussions (other than lose of house), surely?

Sorry, I've just seen some whack ideas posted on biggie regarding rich/poor e.g. somebody claiming that 100k p.a. is not rich

That was me though it is if you are comparing it to people with none at all I suppose.

Companies pay taxes
And companies are regarded as legal persons

:>

And this is coming from a leftwinger...

The fact is, sure, these companies are in trouble because of greed. But so is that guy on welfare because he's too lazy to work, and who needs extra help because he wastes his cash on luxuries.

LOL

where is the other 1%?

Are you trolling neil?

Africa, Asia, South America

Realise that it's not a REAL recession
Productive capacity is exactly the same
It's just perception management. Artificial cash. Complex financial instruments.

Even if productive capacity remains the same, purchasing power will decline

Money is a means of exchange, and has no inherent value.

Coins do Infact afaik they have MORE inherent value than their stated value heh

Again, perception. We are so caught up by our paradigm that we can't step away and consider what has actually occurred.

Economics is simple. The fact that we have such insanely complicated financial instruments shows how much we have complicated it.

Again, perception. We are so caught up by our paradigm that we can't step away and consider what has actually occurred.

True, it's perception, but it's a shared perception not simply individual illusion.
Moreover, that perception is connected with relationships of power, and those who hold power will stop at nothing to maintain it. Metaphorically and literally, money buys guns.

well then it's a collective delusion..

For what it's worth, I couldn't agree more with Vadz on this.

These type of financial disasters are rooted in a construction, a shared imagination of the masses :>

Africa, Asia, South America

"The biggest dilemma we've all got at the moment is trying to understand something that is totally alien to what we've been through before."

dont have time to read the whole thread...

personally I'm not for this bailout but (weirdly imo) most of the economists do think its a sensible idea

The Bush administration's pitch for a sweeping bailout of the financial system has centered on two simple premises: that the economy could suffer a crippling downturn if action is not taken very quickly and that this action should consist of the government buying troubled mortgage securities from banks and other institutions.

But many of the nation's top economists disagree with one or both of those ideas, even as many top political leaders have swung behind them.

Wall Street economists have mostly endorsed Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr.'s plan, or a variation thereof.

But almost 200 academic economists -- who aren't paid by the institutions that could directly benefit from the plan but who also may not have recent practical experience in the markets -- have signed a petition organized by a University of Chicago professor objecting to the plan on the grounds that it could create perverse incentives, that it is too vague and that its long-run effects are unclear

We are all gonna be poor